TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

Two rivals of the new generation jet trainer era


HÜRJET: Turkiye
▪︎ Maximum speed of 1.4 mach
▪︎ 2,222 km range
▪︎ 11.887 m/min rotation rate

T-7A Red Hawk: USA
▪︎ Subsonic speed 0.97 mach
▪︎ 1840 km range
▪︎ 10.211 m/min rotation rate

https://twitter.com/x/status/1803877608985092360

If USA block sale of GE F404 Engine ( 17.700 lbf ) to Turkiye for HURJET
then what will we do ?

2x TEI TF-10.000 ( 2 x 10.000 lbf : 20.000 lbf ) engines can power the HURJET
But we will have to change the design of HURJET and make it with a twin engine.

 

[hyperman]

If USA block sale of GE F404 Engine ( 17.700 lbf ) to Turkiye for HURJET
then what will we do ?

Thats a very interesting question. lol

2x TEI TF-10.000 ( 2 x 10.000 lbf : 20.000 lbf ) engines can power the HURJET
But we will have to change the design of HURJET and make it with a twin engine.

Yep, I expected them to go with the M-346 route, with 2 engines at 10,000lbf but they went with the GE F404, my theory is that the designs for the Hurjet were already frozen and it was too late to change after the whole F-35 fiasco forced a redesign of the TFX KAAN, initially they were planning on making something similar to the KF-21, and then the Engine would have been provided by RollsRoyce with the EJ200, and then 2 of them would have powered the TFX, but with the F-35 fiasco, they went with a bigger fighter with a GE F110 engine, and that changed the dynamics.

The only option for the Hurjet I can think of is the EJ200 trainer derivative from RollsRoyce.

Honestly, this might sound a bit much, but since the Hurjet is supposed to produced in significant numbers and its being exported along with a leadin fighter version, and a potential carrier version, it might be worth investing in a domestic engine based on the tech from the TF10000 and the TF35000 as a engine in the middle, but it would be a significant commitment, probably not likely.

Just hope no embargoes come and nothing stupid happens. lol


edit: It might be possible to share the development cost for the GE 404/414 dropin replacement with the UAE, they are in the market for an Advanced jet trainer, and have been negotiating with the South Koreans for the T-50.

There is a play to be made here, they are currently using older Jet trainers and are looking to replace them, with the right deal, perhaps local production along with a splitting or them financing the costs of a replacement engine, and in return they get to produce it in the UAE, with joint IP ownership. Its not ideal, I would have preferred the Saudis as there is less geopolitical friction with the Saudis, but the Saudis doubled down on the BAE Hawks and paid BAE billions to try to get them to allow domestic production in Saudi recently, so its unlikely they would want another advanced jet trainer. I can't seem to think of anyone else with money that would be willing to buy or finance/split costs for engine development. Indonesians went down the Korean route, Malaysia is very frugal with defense budgets, Egypt is broke. Pakistan is broke and also went with the JF-17 route. No one else really has money to throw like that, Qatar is a good friend and they have money but something like this might be too big for them, they don't have a need..

 

[MMM-E]

Just hope no embargoes come and nothing stupid happens. lol

It is not possible for HURJET to have a dual engine in its current state. We need to make a significant design change, changing 70% of the design

There is no problem for now ...
A total of 200 engine purchases are targeted for HURJET ( 100 + 100 optional )
and the engines are expected to be produced in Turkiye under license by TEI

100-110 HURJET are enough for the Turkish Armed Forces
to replace 68 T-38 jet trainers
to replace 15 NF-5 Jets for the Turkish Stars aerobatic team

Apart from all these, an extra fleet 24 armed HURJETs can be ordered

 

[MMM-E]

Indonesians went down the Korean route, Malaysia is very frugal with defense budgets, Egypt is broke. Pakistan is broke and also went with the JF-17 route. No one else really has money to throw like that, Qatar is a good friend and they have money but something like this might be too big for them, they don't have a need..

Export potential for HURJET has weakened

-- Bangladesh purchased 24 Yakovlev Yak-130s from Russia
-- Turkmenistan purchased 6 Leonardo M-346s from Italy
-- Malaysia and Indonesia purchase T-50 from S.Korea

Spain , Egypt , Qatar , some Balkan , African and South American Countries may buy HURJET

South Korean T-50 also use same F404-GE-102 engine and USA caused no problems for exports

USA' attitude towards exports varies depending on the country to which the product in question will be exported. For example, when Turkiye wanted to export T-129 Atak helicopters to Pakistan, the USA did not approve it, but it did not cause any problems in exporting it to the Philippines. A similar attitude will also apply to HURJET.


The point to note here is that; What will happen when we participate in the same tender with the T-7 Red Hawk ?

for example SPAIN
Spain wants to replace F-5 fleet

T-7 Red Hawk from USA
T-50 from South Korea
M-346 from Italy
HURJET from Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)

 

[hyperman]

South Korean T-50 also use same F404-GE-102 engine and USA caused no problems for exports

Thats b/c south korea is essentially a puppet state, they do what they are told. There is no geopolitical friction. They have a very predictible defined relationship(countering china, Russia and North Korea, and South Korea does not venture out of its borders) With Turkey things are more volatile, with the PKK issue in Syria, the Iran question, Azerbaijan, Greece, etc etc.

USA' attitude towards exports varies depending on the country to which the product in question will be exported. For example, when Turkiye wanted to export T-129 Atak helicopters to Pakistan, the USA did not approve it, but it did not cause any problems in exporting it to the Philippines.

This is true, but another thing to note is that Turkey applied for Pakistan first, and ran into issues with exports, it wasn't seen as a priority for the US, whereas the Phillipines got through b/c they were able to lobby and since they are key for South China sea issues, they were expedited. Maybe if Turkey had applied for Pakistan after the Phillipines tender there might have been less of a issue, its not just Pakistan that was the reason that exports were being restricted, they were restricting to Turkey as well, as relations weren't good at that time.

-- Bangladesh purchased 24 Yakovlev Yak-130s from Russia
-- Turkmenistan purchased 6 Leonardo M-346s from Italy
-- Malaysia and Indonesia purchase T-50 from S.Korea

This is true, but I feel Malaysia for one is interested, despite the T-50 tender. They may go with additional Hurjets for follow on orders, depending on the incentives Turkey offers. South Korea is not going to be able to get every single tender, there is a lot of demand, more so than supply.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

A third party's views, albeit partially neutral, on KAAN:

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey is really pushing the envelope with KAAN project development already the prototype looks 95% ready

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkey is really pushing the envelope with KAAN project development already the prototype looks 95% ready

Even the TAI CEO has been replaced by a younger fellow....

 

[Oublious]

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Export potential for HURJET has weakened

-- Bangladesh purchased 24 Yakovlev Yak-130s from Russia
-- Turkmenistan purchased 6 Leonardo M-346s from Italy
-- Malaysia and Indonesia purchase T-50 from S.Korea

Spain , Egypt , Qatar , some Balkan , African and South American Countries may buy HURJET

South Korean T-50 also use same F404-GE-102 engine and USA caused no problems for exports

USA' attitude towards exports varies depending on the country to which the product in question will be exported. For example, when Turkiye wanted to export T-129 Atak helicopters to Pakistan, the USA did not approve it, but it did not cause any problems in exporting it to the Philippines. A similar attitude will also apply to HURJET.


The point to note here is that; What will happen when we participate in the same tender with the T-7 Red Hawk ?

for example SPAIN
Spain wants to replace F-5 fleet

T-7 Red Hawk from USA
T-50 from South Korea
M-346 from Italy
HURJET from Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)

I wonder if Pakistan gets a Turkish jet with an American engine, whether China might be able to reverse engineer the American engine with Pakistan's help. reverse engineering is not easy, But, China has extensive experience and expertise in this area, having done it for decades.

 

[hyperman]

I wonder if Pakistan gets a Turkish jet with an American engine, whether China might be able to reverse engineer the American engine with Pakistan's help. reverse engineering is not easy, But, China has extensive experience and expertise in this area, having done it for decades.

Which Jet?

The Hurjet or the KAAN?

KAAN is the only one we have seen Pakistan explicitly show interest in, but by the time its ready for export, it will be engined with a Turkish engine(TAI-TF35000) if everything goes as planned.

The engine itself on the KAAN, the GE-F110 is comparable(GEF110 is better but its still comaprable) to the PW-F100 flying that F-16C Block 52+ that Pakistan has, so not sure what sort of "reverse engineering" opportunity will be present, thats not present now. Besides the fact that China has the WS-15 which surpasses the GE-F110, which is more comparable to the WS-10. Maybe if this was 20 years ago, it would have been relevant, but currently its of no relevance for China to copy something like that.

 

[Eşbah]

Which Jet?

The Hurjet or the KAAN?

KAAN is the only one we have seen Pakistan explicitly show interest in, but by the time its ready for export, it will be engined with a Turkish engine(TAI-TF35000) if everything goes as planned.

The engine itself on the KAAN, the GE-F110 is comparable(GEF110 is better but its still comaprable) to the PW-F100 flying that F-16C Block 52+ that Pakistan has, so not sure what sort of "reverse engineering" opportunity will be present, thats not present now. Besides the fact that China has the WS-15 which surpasses the GE-F110, which is more comparable to the WS-10. Maybe if this was 20 years ago, it would have been relevant, but currently its of no relevance for China to copy something like that.

If I might add, why the hell should Pakistanis piss off their closest ally? It doesn't make sense.

 

[hyperman]

If I might add, why the hell should Pakistanis piss off their closest ally? It doesn't make sense.

exactly, it makes no sense for Pakistan.

and China doesn't even need to reverse engineer, their WS-15 is already in production, and its on par with the the F119. There is nothing for China to gain.

 

[Falcon26]

Which Jet?

The Hurjet or the KAAN?

KAAN is the only one we have seen Pakistan explicitly show interest in, but by the time its ready for export, it will be engined with a Turkish engine(TAI-TF35000) if everything goes as planned.

The engine itself on the KAAN, the GE-F110 is comparable(GEF110 is better but its still comaprable) to the PW-F100 flying that F-16C Block 52+ that Pakistan has, so not sure what sort of "reverse engineering" opportunity will be present, thats not present now. Besides the fact that China has the WS-15 which surpasses the GE-F110, which is more comparable to the WS-10. Maybe if this was 20 years ago, it would have been relevant, but currently its of no relevance for China to copy something like that.

He knows the basic facts. He just wants to spread misinformation and the bogus narrative that if Pakistan gets western technology, it will forward it to china for reverse engineering.

 

[TopGun786]

I wonder if Pakistan gets a Turkish jet with an American engine, whether China might be able to reverse engineer the American engine with Pakistan's help. reverse engineering is not easy, But, China has extensive experience and expertise in this area, having done it for decades.

Guys lives in 1980s.