The Munir Doctrine

[FuturePAF]

The underlying issue facing Pakistan, at least the way I see it, is its political system.

It has caused instability since direct military dictatorship ended, and if analysts are to be believed, a hybrid system was introduced.

In such a system, the struggle for power is almost inevitable, and any minor disagreement will cause the delicate balance to break.

Unless and until this issue is resolved, Pakistan will continue to face political instability.

Politicians are gonna fight, that’s what they do. But that doesn’t mean there can’t be rules to how the squabble and national interests that they don’t violate. Institutions like the courts are suppose to keep them in check, while advisory organizations are suppose to tell them what policies would be best to maximize development.

Certain ministries need technically skilled people, that know (based on analysis by technical institutions) what would happen if they did certain things, such as spending money in one sector will increase GDP while spending another way will not increase GDP immediately now but will pay off down the line to attract FDI.

We need a 20-30 year technical strategy with room for social development that each party can propose via their manifesto/party platforms.

In foreign policy, we need a serious assessment of the long term strategy plan for the nation, and have a plan to stick to it. Politics isn’t as much an issue as a weak economy limits Pakistan from making the most of opportunities, especially in making foreign policy.

 

[Nilgiri]

The underlying issue facing Pakistan, at least the way I see it, is its political system.

It has caused instability since direct military dictatorship ended, and if analysts are to be believed, a hybrid system was introduced.

In such a system, the struggle for power is almost inevitable, and any minor disagreement will cause the delicate balance to break.

Unless and until this issue is resolved, Pakistan will continue to face political instability.

Politicians are gonna fight, that’s what they do. But that doesn’t mean there can’t be rules to how the squabble and national interests that they don’t violate. Institutions like the courts are suppose to keep them in check, while advisory organizations are suppose to tell them what policies would be best to maximize development.

Certain ministries need technically skilled people, that know (based on analysis by technical institutions) what would happen if they did certain things, such as spending money in one sector will increase GDP while spending another way will not increase GDP immediately now but will pay off down the line to attract FDI.

We need a 20-30 year technical strategy with room for social development that each party can propose via their manifesto/party platforms.

In foreign policy, we need a serious assessment of the long term strategy plan for the nation, and have a plan to stick to it. Politics isn’t as much an issue as a weak economy limits Pakistan from making the most of opportunities, especially in making foreign policy.

Well deep within what has been wrought in Pakistan's politics w.r.t the way the establishment has formed now is a heavy-set anti-intellectualism.

It requires compliance to the security bunker state psyche with no challenge presented to its hypocrisies from say greater pragmatic feedback from larger reality and society in Pakistan.

Given intellect naturally must be afforded routes to express this given intellect often realises its greater responsibility and ability to try change things for the better.

Thus, within Pakistan very specifically to its context..... a huge amount of intellect is squandered, abandoned or squelched by this.....when every micro% of intellect matters immensely in a developing country to work with what it has and get out of its morass and mess it has inherited (especially given the resources that go into cultivating intellect and networking intellect together).

I can give specific examples I know up close on this next (like smartest Pakistani friend/colleague I know in real life and his father's role/experience in Pakistan administration).... and then get into some specific numbers of the state of this dereliction (represented in critical economic numbers and intellectual output) and Pakistan's seeming inability to change this from the inside-out as would be required to set some momentum on it for change within say a generation.

The outside-in are waves crashing on the rock in comparison if the rock has lodged itself strongly enough in the psychological way it impacts with the population....i.e perseverance of the status quo with it as the entire full priority on every consequential matter no matter the cost on the whole.

These are things that number of members more aligned to the security-state at all cost (and it will "find a way" with some "magical wand") simply dont understand. There is some doubling down on the cart being put well in front of the donkey.....that this approach is best and must be commited to rather than analysed and changed appropriately.

At some point sustenance has to be realised as the thing that gives security. Otherwise you score poorly in the North Korea - South Korea spectrum (as I put it roughly everywhere) contextualized to your own scenario.

 

[nahtanbob]

The underlying issue facing Pakistan, at least the way I see it, is its political system.

It has caused instability since direct military dictatorship ended, and if analysts are to be believed, a hybrid system was introduced.

In such a system, the struggle for power is almost inevitable, and any minor disagreement will cause the delicate balance to break.

Unless and until this issue is resolved, Pakistan will continue to face political instability.

the real issue is lack of accountability. Many Pakistanis could care less about who wields power. But when people do not like the results they want bums thrown out and possibly a change in policies. Pakistani Army is determined to avoid this accountability

 

[Nilgiri]

This seems to be the largest thread so far concerning Pakistan's strategic doctrine (to address strategic issues, dilemma and problems concerning it etc).

So we can continue this conversation here for now if mods think its best relocated here.

The crux of the problem as I see it, is our obsession with using non state actors to keep small fires lit in our neighborhood. Until the start 2000's we were dabbling inside western China with this policy!! This policy or methodology has not panned out positively for Pakistan on any of the borders. Kashmir....now firmly part of Indian Union. Afghanistan a mess that has backfired royally for us. Proxies inside Iran have not delivered if anything was to be delivered. In-fact now it has put GoP in an awkward position. China...well they put a stout piece of wood up our..... and that was the end of that story.

Deploying proxies and supporting them requires a solid long term objective, steadfastness, strong political and public support for the cause, economic and military muscle, and alignment with big power goals in that particular area of operations. Now even with all of this, proxies tend to go their own way when they start exerting influence in their are of operations. US has been at the receiving end of it many a times, and Pakistan too.

Pakistan has none of the above except in one instance, the first Afghan adventure. We should learn from our mistakes and move away from this strategy, it does not work and has not worked for us without the support of the lone superpower. Even China treads with care on this strategy given the myriad complexities in its operations. The nine sisters is a case in point on north east India.

It is high time that we hunker down and look inwards as a nation and do a self check on where we have gone wrong as a nation and what has destroyed our social fabric. Look towards the economy. Don't seek foreign investment but look towards creating and eco system that supports local investment in manufacturing, agri, power distribution and energy and services sectors. There is tons of money that Pakistanis can deploy which they have invested overseas if they feel that its worth their effort and their investments are safeguarded. The trust that was destroyed in the early 70's needs to be restored. This is where entities like SIFC should concentrate. Short term patchwork is not going to work now.

And we certainly need to desist from this proxy game. Hamaray bus ki baat nahee rahee ab ye khel.!!! We have suffered and are suffering.

I still remember when in 2001 one of my acquaintances who used to work for the state department mentioned that when he spoke to a veteran diplomat who had been stationed in New Delhi for a while said that Pakistan should resolve its issues with India on Kashmir soon otherwise India is fast approaching a position in the world pecking order where Pakistan would be threatened with surrendering its side of Kashmir down to Mari!!!

It is high time we took our heads out of our behinds and smell the air.... my apologies for the harsh words and tone.


My 2C worth

there are many that echo this sentiment within the Pakistani corridors of power but are shut out by the mediocre or opportunists.

That doesn’t mean that India for both its national interest (and at times under hawkish extremist push) doesn’t pose the primary threat to Pakistan. But that the policies to tackle the threat - either by resolving the issues when the opportunity was ripe(98-99 & 2006-7) or through proper calculated strategy (Limited application of the Kargil “adventure” and Kashmiri nationalism rather than rabid Jihadists) was simply not done. Combine that with what is repeatedly pointed out is total institutional failure and strip mining of Pakistan’s resources and gross mismanagement - Pakistan’s quasi-state structure has been writing checks it had no capacity to cash in any aspect.

Now that overarching strategic goal is lost - it should count its blessings. Finish at LoC and work to keep what it has as @Aamir Hussain has so eloquently put - and do all it can to mend relations with India even if it means bending backwards because right now it has less and less of a choice.

The defense is secured - Pakistan’s weapons are still sufficient to blunt any aggression for the required time to send messages and get sanity in play while the calculus to cause irreparable harm to India is kept with the large number of nuclear warheads and delivery systems - MAD exists in the subcontinent and any ABM or otherwise guarantees nothing more than maybe 5% less losses.

But the issue is NOT that - and its internal to Pakistan and beyond the scope of this thread.

India checkmates us on economy. That holds the key to checkmate in every other sector. Indian spending on defense is sustainable, they have already laid the ground work, the industrial foundations, the private corporations partnerships, they are slow but steady. Their naval programs also took a while to mature and now in few years, it will be producing metal like Juggernaut. Exactly same will happen with aviation sector. In addition to their indigenous programs for 4.5 & 5th gen, I think they will do partnerships for MMRCA program. They are at the level where Lockheed martin wants to setup plants in india for production of F-21.

F-21

Meet the F-21, specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, with unmatched 'Make in India' opportunities for advanced airpower.

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" The F-21 provides unmatched opportunities for Indian companies of all sizes, including Micro, Small & Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) and suppliers throughout India, to establish new business relationships with Lockheed Martin and other industry leaders in the US and around the globe.

This program will be ‘Made in India’ generating tens of thousands of highly skilled jobs through the maturation of India’s large and emerging aerospace and defence (A&D) manufacturing network. "


On the other hand, we are actually lucky that China progressed immensely in last 20 years and we found a supplier which can provide latest weaponary without imposing sanctions or applying conditions (atleast not publicly if at all). Otherwise, PAF situation would have been like what was in 1990s, when US wasn't selling anything, Russia wasn't selling too because of India's pressure, no local manufacturing capabilities and the best China could offer was J-7 PG. But even with a solid supplier, we seriously need to do sustainable purchases for defense. Even when india wasn't looking for immediate 5th Gen solution, I wonder what was the urgency to make 'very soon' announcement. J-10C, F-16s, JF-17s was enough of a balance with current indian setup. When according to you AMCA is 10-15 years away, perhaps we should have invested and done partnership on 5th gen programs like KAAN? PAF was a partners & owners in a 4th / 4++ gen platform like JFT with China and its mainstay of our airforce. Would that be not a downgrade that we will only be user in 5th gen platform and completely dependent without any say or input. While, india on other hand will be producing their own.

Anyways, we don't have to underestimate the adversary. We need to analyze they are doing long term plannings with sustainable growth.

This is the wrong way to look at things. By the way, both HAL & DRDO are being reformed and the private sector such as TATA etc are being promoted in a big way.

But beyond the military industrial complex, you also need to take account of the serious way the decision-making process and procurment culture is being reformed. You also need to take account of the creation of inter-service level leadership positions such as the Chief of Defence Staff. This position was specifically created among other reasons to “assign inter-services prioritisation to capital acquisition proposals.” This position will also be responsible of the integration and seamless interconnection of the Indian armed forces.

So on many fronts, the Indians are working incessantly to address their strategic bottlenecks, at the highest levels. So your “15 years away” is just a fantasy and not grounded in reality. Reality doesn’t work how we want or wish it to work. It has its own means and methods.

Finally, ask yourself what the Pakistani state has done to correct its perennial bottleneck of a stagnant economy. Worse, in addition to a stagnant economy, a rising population and extreme unemployment, the Pakistani state, thanks to its out of control army generals, now also has to contend with social cohesion and extreme polarization.

You are underestimating the evolving indian mindset and obsession of being a superpower. You underestimate them at your own peril.

Great posts and debate guys.

Sharp thorns cannot be be-all end-all in zero sum fashion. Fruit is what matters first. Thorns must grow around the fruit....only thorns means the plant stagnates and whithers away at great cost and cannot sustain. It is fruit that perpetuates the plant species not the thorns.

North Korea has extreme form of bunker state to protect an extreme cult-regime of concerted power inside it.....but at what cost?

What would the PRC have been if there was similar continuation (to North Korea) of extreme-Maoism after Mao?....and no Deng pragmatism w.r.t "it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice".

"Its the economy stupid."

Where does Pakistan ultimately want to lie on the south korea - north korea spectrum? Same Korean people essentially, but subjected to very different routes from a great diverging fork on the road.

@Joe Shearer @VCheng @That_Guy

Funny how I got into trouble in the past by pointing out parallels between NK and Pakistan. I still wonder, as I asked previously, how secure Pakistan really is, despite its nuclear deterrent, given the state of its economy and HDI, and where those are headed.

 

[Nilgiri]

Going to get to the "bunker state psyche" soon hopefully at where/how/why at its deepest levels (and this very interesting stuff you bring up related to it w.r.t USSR) @FuturePAF . Its all in my head already, its just about putting pen to paper here soon.

For now, I post the thread here so folks can read the larger context of how the convo established and progressed to this topic and its ultimate relation to largest perspective and strategic contours for Pakistan, neighbourhood and world at large:

(pages 2 and 3 mostly):

Israel's Tower proposes $8 bln chip plant in India

10 years is far too optimistic, granted, but then we just down to how long would it take for Pakistan catch up to India on a per capita basis. Goldman Sachs thinks so in 50 years but even people in Pakistan are skeptical. Where was india 30 years ago and where is it now (granted it had other...

defencepk.com

These following threads are also maybe useful context in interim for interested members to have a read and share their thoughts on this topic at large (strategic doctrine of Pakistan, past, present, future....whatever the good, bad and the ugly of it).

w.r.t Pakistan economic problems specifically (i.e what I often describe in broad format as Human Resource + Capital deployment and generation to address the basic economic problem of scarcity and the allocation of resources optimally):

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian BR Web Desk February 12, 2024 Atif Mian, a noted Pakistani-American economist and currently a professor of Economics, Public Policy, and Finance at Princeton University, has said that Pakistan “is bankrupt” and “sinking deeper...

defencepk.com

My thoughts on "brave new world's" dystopia and totalitarianism broadly in the book thread (this connects to parts of the bunker state psyche "level and degree" in a power-establishment in the current reality....and its costs on the whole). The convo starts around page 9 and parses in pieces with NOBODY till about page 14 currently:

What book are you reading?

Do they really just abruptly stop? When the eye passes over a point, yes. Then as the opposite wall comes in, it starts again form a generally opposite direction. Quite eerie, actually. Storm. Suddenly calm. Clear blue sky. Clouds all around the horizon. Then bam, it starts again.

defencepk.com

Other members can bring in threads/posts (along with own thoughts etc) as they see fit from other parts of forum related to this larger topic as well, in addition to the convo that shapes up here in a longer format.

Tagging what may be some interested members for this convo (and the earlier posts in this thread too), so we are all in one place for both the largest (strategic) perspective and also for whichever detail they are interested in (just off top my head, apologies for those I missed):

@Oscar @Joe Shearer @VCheng @_NOBODY_ @Signalian @RAMPAGE @Waj Sal @Falcon26 @Fatman17 @Jungibaaz

Folks can tag others (they think will be interested etc) as well. This will be long form stuff in end. I'm just putting it here for now as I think this thread is overall most apt for the measured discussion on this stuff.

I also saw this thread pop up just now too:

Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

Why is every institution/idara in Pakistan so EXTREMELY weak? (An unfunny joke in straight forward terms) There's a general trend where they are so unprofessional with plenty of unskilled/unqualified workers that you can hardly even think anyone takes anything serious in this country. This can...

defencepk.com

 

[FuturePAF]

Going to get to the "bunker state psyche" soon hopefully at where/how/why at its deepest levels (and this very interesting stuff you bring up related to it w.r.t USSR) @FuturePAF . Its all in my head already, its just about putting pen to paper here soon.

For now, I post the thread here so folks can read the larger context of how the convo established and progressed to this topic and its ultimate relation to largest perspective and strategic contours for Pakistan, neighbourhood and world at large:

(pages 2 and 3 mostly):

Israel's Tower proposes $8 bln chip plant in India

10 years is far too optimistic, granted, but then we just down to how long would it take for Pakistan catch up to India on a per capita basis. Goldman Sachs thinks so in 50 years but even people in Pakistan are skeptical. Where was india 30 years ago and where is it now (granted it had other...

defencepk.com

These following threads are also maybe useful context in interim for interested members to have a read and share their thoughts on this topic at large (strategic doctrine of Pakistan, past, present, future....whatever the good, bad and the ugly of it).

w.r.t Pakistan economic problems specifically (i.e what I often describe in broad format as Human Resource + Capital deployment and generation to address the basic economic problem of scarcity and the allocation of resources optimally):

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian BR Web Desk February 12, 2024 Atif Mian, a noted Pakistani-American economist and currently a professor of Economics, Public Policy, and Finance at Princeton University, has said that Pakistan “is bankrupt” and “sinking deeper...

defencepk.com

My thoughts on "brave new world's" dystopia and totalitarianism broadly in the book thread (this connects to parts of the bunker state psyche "level and degree" in a power-establishment in the current reality....and its costs on the whole). The convo starts around page 9 and parses in pieces with NOBODY till about page 14 currently:

What book are you reading?

Do they really just abruptly stop? When the eye passes over a point, yes. Then as the opposite wall comes in, it starts again form a generally opposite direction. Quite eerie, actually. Storm. Suddenly calm. Clear blue sky. Clouds all around the horizon. Then bam, it starts again.

defencepk.com

Other members can bring in threads/posts (along with own thoughts etc) as they see fit from other parts of forum related to this larger topic as well, in addition to the convo that shapes up here in a longer format.

Tagging what may be some interested members for this convo (and the earlier posts in this thread too), so we are all in one place for both the largest (strategic) perspective and also for whichever detail they are interested in (just off top my head, apologies for those I missed):

@Oscar @Joe Shearer @VCheng @_NOBODY_ @Signalian @RAMPAGE @Waj Sal @Falcon26 @Fatman17 @Jungibaaz

Folks can tag others (they think will be interested etc) as well. This will be long form stuff in end. I'm just putting it here for now as I think this thread is overall most apt for the measured discussion on this stuff.

I also saw this thread pop up just now too:

Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

Why is every institution/idara in Pakistan so EXTREMELY weak? (An unfunny joke in straight forward terms) There's a general trend where they are so unprofessional with plenty of unskilled/unqualified workers that you can hardly even think anyone takes anything serious in this country. This can...

defencepk.com

Nicely bring all the “threads” to the thread where it can be most aptly be understood to culminate for a decision towards and, IMHO, the seat of actual potential change can emerge, if allowed to. The place where the strategic options of the country will be allowed to be exercised or not.

As an example, we can look at Robert Moses, the great infrastructure builder in New York for 30-40 years. When in a single day he moved the levers of power to get his win, but undermined what the people wanted.

While it may seem expedient to do it this way, it doesn’t maximize benefit to society. A level of diffuse power and economics creates a more stable and economically prosperous society IMHO.

This is also why, I looks at how Poland came out of its Communist period and worked toward preventing the formation of oligarchies and allowed the development of SMEs as in Germany, and has created an economic model to study and learn from.

Pakistan needs to find a Nash Equilibrium, and therefore IMHO desperately needs a single party with a majority (perhaps even 2/3?), and a solid mandate to push through a vision, a vision of key economics and political reforms to create a new social contract, and attract and retain top talent. Top talent that will carry out the reforms and rapidly improve key indicators, such as lowering cost of living, and cost of dosing business, and improving business competitiveness, ease of doing business, both commercially and with dealing with government institutions for all walks of life.

Building trust with low hanging fruit projects like mass literacy through hiring more teachers (and perhaps paying parents a modest sum to both help their kids become literate as well as become literate themselves, we have a 40% illiteracy rate, so we need to help parents become literate as well), improving water quality with water treatment plants, and a massive roll out of bus based mass public transportation on regular roads, with law enforcement managing traffic, not multi-billion dollar rights of way. If PTI looks like it come become the next government, it needs to allocate or garner funds to get these kinds of projects up and running. Get the people busy in achievable projects in a year or so. Reduce under 5 mortality. Improve nutrition, improve crop yields with drip (water and nutrient directed) irrigation, with loans to farmers.

Do what is east to built trust and help the elite loosen their grip so the nation can grow and the elite can also benefit as well; grow the pie, don’t hoard it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Going to get to the "bunker state psyche" soon hopefully at where/how/why at its deepest levels (and this very interesting stuff you bring up related to it w.r.t USSR) @FuturePAF . Its all in my head already, its just about putting pen to paper here soon.

For now, I post the thread here so folks can read the larger context of how the convo established and progressed to this topic and its ultimate relation to largest perspective and strategic contours for Pakistan, neighbourhood and world at large:

(pages 2 and 3 mostly):

Israel's Tower proposes $8 bln chip plant in India

10 years is far too optimistic, granted, but then we just down to how long would it take for Pakistan catch up to India on a per capita basis. Goldman Sachs thinks so in 50 years but even people in Pakistan are skeptical. Where was india 30 years ago and where is it now (granted it had other...

defencepk.com

These following threads are also maybe useful context in interim for interested members to have a read and share their thoughts on this topic at large (strategic doctrine of Pakistan, past, present, future....whatever the good, bad and the ugly of it).

w.r.t Pakistan economic problems specifically (i.e what I often describe in broad format as Human Resource + Capital deployment and generation to address the basic economic problem of scarcity and the allocation of resources optimally):

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian BR Web Desk February 12, 2024 Atif Mian, a noted Pakistani-American economist and currently a professor of Economics, Public Policy, and Finance at Princeton University, has said that Pakistan “is bankrupt” and “sinking deeper...

defencepk.com

My thoughts on "brave new world's" dystopia and totalitarianism broadly in the book thread (this connects to parts of the bunker state psyche "level and degree" in a power-establishment in the current reality....and its costs on the whole). The convo starts around page 9 and parses in pieces with NOBODY till about page 14 currently:

What book are you reading?

Do they really just abruptly stop? When the eye passes over a point, yes. Then as the opposite wall comes in, it starts again form a generally opposite direction. Quite eerie, actually. Storm. Suddenly calm. Clear blue sky. Clouds all around the horizon. Then bam, it starts again.

defencepk.com

Other members can bring in threads/posts (along with own thoughts etc) as they see fit from other parts of forum related to this larger topic as well, in addition to the convo that shapes up here in a longer format.

Tagging what may be some interested members for this convo (and the earlier posts in this thread too), so we are all in one place for both the largest (strategic) perspective and also for whichever detail they are interested in (just off top my head, apologies for those I missed):

@Oscar @Joe Shearer @VCheng @_NOBODY_ @Signalian @RAMPAGE @Waj Sal @Falcon26 @Fatman17 @Jungibaaz

Folks can tag others (they think will be interested etc) as well. This will be long form stuff in end. I'm just putting it here for now as I think this thread is overall most apt for the measured discussion on this stuff.

I also saw this thread pop up just now too:

Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

Why is every institution/idara in Pakistan so EXTREMELY weak? (An unfunny joke in straight forward terms) There's a general trend where they are so unprofessional with plenty of unskilled/unqualified workers that you can hardly even think anyone takes anything serious in this country. This can...

defencepk.com

Going to get to the "bunker state psyche" soon hopefully at where/how/why at its deepest levels (and this very interesting stuff you bring up related to it w.r.t USSR) @FuturePAF . Its all in my head already, its just about putting pen to paper here soon.

For now, I post the thread here so folks can read the larger context of how the convo established and progressed to this topic and its ultimate relation to largest perspective and strategic contours for Pakistan, neighbourhood and world at large:

(pages 2 and 3 mostly):

Israel's Tower proposes $8 bln chip plant in India

10 years is far too optimistic, granted, but then we just down to how long would it take for Pakistan catch up to India on a per capita basis. Goldman Sachs thinks so in 50 years but even people in Pakistan are skeptical. Where was india 30 years ago and where is it now (granted it had other...

defencepk.com

These following threads are also maybe useful context in interim for interested members to have a read and share their thoughts on this topic at large (strategic doctrine of Pakistan, past, present, future....whatever the good, bad and the ugly of it).

w.r.t Pakistan economic problems specifically (i.e what I often describe in broad format as Human Resource + Capital deployment and generation to address the basic economic problem of scarcity and the allocation of resources optimally):

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian

Pakistan ‘is bankrupt’ and ‘sinking deeper every year’: Atif Mian BR Web Desk February 12, 2024 Atif Mian, a noted Pakistani-American economist and currently a professor of Economics, Public Policy, and Finance at Princeton University, has said that Pakistan “is bankrupt” and “sinking deeper...

defencepk.com

My thoughts on "brave new world's" dystopia and totalitarianism broadly in the book thread (this connects to parts of the bunker state psyche "level and degree" in a power-establishment in the current reality....and its costs on the whole). The convo starts around page 9 and parses in pieces with NOBODY till about page 14 currently:

What book are you reading?

Do they really just abruptly stop? When the eye passes over a point, yes. Then as the opposite wall comes in, it starts again form a generally opposite direction. Quite eerie, actually. Storm. Suddenly calm. Clear blue sky. Clouds all around the horizon. Then bam, it starts again.

defencepk.com

Other members can bring in threads/posts (along with own thoughts etc) as they see fit from other parts of forum related to this larger topic as well, in addition to the convo that shapes up here in a longer format.

Tagging what may be some interested members for this convo (and the earlier posts in this thread too), so we are all in one place for both the largest (strategic) perspective and also for whichever detail they are interested in (just off top my head, apologies for those I missed):

@Oscar @Joe Shearer @VCheng @_NOBODY_ @Signalian @RAMPAGE @Waj Sal @Falcon26 @Fatman17 @Jungibaaz

Folks can tag others (they think will be interested etc) as well. This will be long form stuff in end. I'm just putting it here for now as I think this thread is overall most apt for the measured discussion on this stuff.

I also saw this thread pop up just now too:

Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

Why is every institution/idara in Pakistan so EXTREMELY weak? (An unfunny joke in straight forward terms) There's a general trend where they are so unprofessional with plenty of unskilled/unqualified workers that you can hardly even think anyone takes anything serious in this country. This can...

defencepk.com

Thanks for tagging me, I'll be reading the posts with avid interest.

I joined PDF a decade ago and more. It seems to me it still is a situation where, personally, there is little to say about Pakistan. That country exists not because some miracle worker brought it into being. Not because it is ordained to come into existence. It exists because the people who live in this land want it to exist. As long as they go on thinking that way, it will exist. It will have problems in plenty. It may lose parts. It may gain parts. That's their karma.

India occupies my mind and takes up all my attention. I'd rather worry about whether my grandson will have this country, this India or a variation, that he can call his own.

Looking forward to reading your posts.

 

[Oscar]

Thanks for tagging me, I'll be reading the posts with avid interest.

I joined PDF a decade ago and more. It seems to me it still is a situation where, personally, there is little to say about Pakistan. That country exists not because some miracle worker brought it into being. Not because it is ordained to come into existence. It exists because the people who live in this land want it to exist. As long as they go on thinking that way, it will exist. It will have problems in plenty. It may lose parts. It may gain parts. That's their karma.

India occupies my mind and takes up all my attention. I'd rather worry about whether my grandson will have this country, this India or a variation, that he can call his own.

Looking forward to reading your posts.

Shall we dare say Pakistan needs a BJP type quasi RSS mentality? So then the pan-Islamist IK was somewhat right in his approach if bumbling in implementation?

 

[Fatman17]

joined PDF a decade ago and more. It seems to me it still is a situation where, personally, there is little to say about Pakistan. That country exists not because some miracle worker brought it into being. Not because it is ordained to come into existence. It exists because the people who live in this land want it to exist. As long as they go on thinking that way, it will exist. It will have problems in plenty. It may lose parts. It may gain parts. That's their karma.

Joe you hit it on the nail. The resilience of the people is absolutely amazing and it is their main strength. Pakistan has lost one big part more than 50 years ago and outside influence is trying its best to do more of the same (with inside help) but so far they have not succeeded.
The post-election scenarios hark to another post-election situation in 1977 when the military finally intervened with Gen Z toppling Bhutto and 2 years later he was hanged.
Today the most popular leader since The Great Jinnah is already in jail and now in the election chaos there is talk of a military takeover but the people won't have it. The people may be illiterate (40% or more) but they are media- intelligent. They are not ignorant but media-savvy.
You know how they voted after the bat symbol was banned. They only made sure that they knew the "symbol " of their constituencies whatsoever it was and voted 🗳 wholeheartedly. They didn't even know the name of the candidate in most cases - they were voting for the Man behind the Bars!!!.
And this is the conundrum the mil-establishment faces. Their biggest challenge to their existence!

 

[Fatman17]

The mil-establishment needs to Shed its "we are the saviours " mentality. The Saviours are the People of Pakistan .

 

[Joe Shearer]

The resilience of the people is absolutely amazing

What can anyone add to this?

I can only hope that we prove to be no less brave and self healing as we face the nightmare that is our country today.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Shall we dare say Pakistan needs a BJP type quasi RSS mentality? So then the pan-Islamist IK was somewhat right in his approach if bumbling in implementation?

That is finally for the Pakistani to decide.
An outsider, even a privileged outsider admitted to the free and easy inner conversations of a generous host, is best counselled to remain silent.
However, purely in the abstract, it would be a pity if the sick monster that sits around our necks is mirrored in our neighbouring country, and that, in turn, mirrored once more, in a series of mutually harmful excesses stretching to infinity.

 

[Fatman17]

" Corrupt Ruling elites suits West. They can not tolerate patriotic leader heading the state. Soon after independence, they eliminated Mr. Jinnah, Mr. Liaquat, Ms. Fatima. Imposed corrupt elite within five years after 1947.
Read insightful book. 'No Exit from Pakistan'

 

[Fatman17]

" Corrupt Ruling elites suits West. They can not tolerate patriotic leader heading the state. Soon after independence, they eliminated Mr. Jinnah, Mr. Liaquat, Ms. Fatima. Imposed corrupt elite within five years after 1947.
Read insightful book. 'No Exit from Pakistan'

 

[Fatman17]