The Munir Doctrine

[VCheng]

Folks can tag others (they think will be interested etc) as well. This will be long form stuff in end. I'm just putting it here for now as I think this thread is overall most apt for the measured discussion on this stuff.

I also saw this thread pop up just now too:

Pakistan's real problem is very poor institutions - not political

Why is every institution/idara in Pakistan so EXTREMELY weak? (An unfunny joke in straight forward terms) There's a general trend where they are so unprofessional with plenty of unskilled/unqualified workers that you can hardly even think anyone takes anything serious in this country. This can...

defencepk.com

As soon as I think I am getting somewhere with disengagement, here you go again with though provoking posts that have the seeds of great discussions in them. My problem remains that most here - barring a few distinct exceptions - are simply not ready to engage in such discussions, let along grasp even remotely the content and definitely not the intent.

The thread that you quoted I have followed with interest, but it is still sadly predictable in the steady denial and obfuscation of the core issues. The system is working exactly as designed and it will continue to deliver the results it is designed to achieve, without a doubt. The reasons it persists in the country (and indeed in this forum) is because we simply do not feel the need to change any of it.

Need I go on further? If I do, many here should be prepared to be offended, and so should I be to bear the inevitable fallout.

 

[Nilgiri]

Please elaborate on the “bunker state psyche”.

What you describe is more akin to feudal lord eating his peasant’s crops, and even more so of his most entrepreneurial peasant’s crops. Hence, why work hard. The conundrum of communist countries in the 70s and 80s.

It reminded me of two videos I watched about working life in the late soviet period, and the kinds of corruptions. Inefficiency and various kinds of thief undermined the ability of the economy to function.

Nicely bring all the “threads” to the thread where it can be most aptly be understood to culminate for a decision towards and, IMHO, the seat of actual potential change can emerge, if allowed to. The place where the strategic options of the country will be allowed to be exercised or not.

As an example, we can look at Robert Moses, the great infrastructure builder in New York for 30-40 years. When in a single day he moved the levers of power to get his win, but undermined what the people wanted.

While it may seem expedient to do it this way, it doesn’t maximize benefit to society. A level of diffuse power and economics creates a more stable and economically prosperous society IMHO.

This is also why, I looks at how Poland came out of its Communist period and worked toward preventing the formation of oligarchies and allowed the development of SMEs as in Germany, and has created an economic model to study and learn from.

Pakistan needs to find a Nash Equilibrium, and therefore IMHO desperately needs a single party with a majority (perhaps even 2/3?), and a solid mandate to push through a vision, a vision of key economics and political reforms to create a new social contract, and attract and retain top talent. Top talent that will carry out the reforms and rapidly improve key indicators, such as lowering cost of living, and cost of dosing business, and improving business competitiveness, ease of doing business, both commercially and with dealing with government institutions for all walks of life.

Building trust with low hanging fruit projects like mass literacy through hiring more teachers (and perhaps paying parents a modest sum to both help their kids become literate as well as become literate themselves, we have a 40% illiteracy rate, so we need to help parents become literate as well), improving water quality with water treatment plants, and a massive roll out of bus based mass public transportation on regular roads, with law enforcement managing traffic, not multi-billion dollar rights of way. If PTI looks like it come become the next government, it needs to allocate or garner funds to get these kinds of projects up and running. Get the people busy in achievable projects in a year or so. Reduce under 5 mortality. Improve nutrition, improve crop yields with drip (water and nutrient directed) irrigation, with loans to farmers.

Do what is east to built trust and help the elite loosen their grip so the nation can grow and the elite can also benefit as well; grow the pie, don’t hoard it.

IMO, power should indeed be balanced/hedged/distributed by proven competencies as far as possible.

A bunker/security state is where this has been concentrated in a power for power sake rationale (using say fear of some outside entity).

So competencies outside of the power realm more often than not are rejected, squandered and left to whither. So that's what I meant by that earlier.

Every nationstate has degrees of this, but the intensities and opportunity costs vary immensely generally depending on how much of the bunker state has been systematized and entrenched. Huge natural resource per person (say energy) can bypass the raw macroeconomic pitfalls to some degree, but thats about the only route (and the wealth ends up getting concentrated internally as result too)....and its highly dependent on broader competent countries outside yours having developed the uses for this energy in the first place (and thus willing to trade their products for it etc).

Where there is no natural resource abundance, human resource is the only way out and this is what is often left underdeveloped by power concentrations who do not have the wherewithal at the resolutions needed for that (i.e harnessing more positive psyche with broader competencies in the population and the distribution and check and balance and feedback process of the less-powerful that needs to be systematized).

This can definitely visit a more industrialised country like the USSR as well in its own way like you point out if the root-flaw has been gestated and not corrected/dissipated over time due to no proper feedback and change combined with incredible fiscal resources consistently put towards military and heavy industry and incredible immoral approach to citizenry that posed political or other challenges inside (Gulags, disappearances, deliberate famines, collective exterminations, extreme security state apparatus etc).

i.e Extreme Marxism may be the largest modern day representation of it along with extreme social conservatism.

Its manifestation in the USSR (And north korea in extreme fashion to this day) is not surprising phenomenon, GOSPLAN and all.

Gorby tried to shift things too quickly and things unravelled in quick order. Long story in end but it shows the predicament.

To understand the root of where things like fascism, marxism, national socialism et al expressed themselves in the 20th century, needs a good detailed read of the 19th century, with say Karl Marx...and how materialism entrenched itself as be-all end-all within this domain and the shoddiness of the moral and logical basis used in large parts here (the old ploy of sounding smart but not giving an actual cogent structured smart reasoning)

To promote ideology that inserts powerful at any cost (the bunker state psyche) within a social setup's raison d'etre (purpose, meaning etc) to hold the maximum psychological grasp possible.

Then you have to look into Hegel at some point and what he leaves "up in the air" in his extremely flawed approach to dialectics IMO (that to me is harnessed by the powerful easily in a "trust us, we see furthest and we know whats best" by engaging in various circular psychobabble that influenced Marx, Gentile et al. downstream in their various own ways...and continue to leave an impact to this day if you have a power-class that is too insular and top-down control-freak oriented etc)

This then takes a longer journey into Plato's approach (and its flawed harnessing downstream in philosophy broadly) and the hermeticism that influenced him too. Things that need to be understood to need proper bounding, rather than left unbounded (and the easy-street for nonsensical self-referential pseudo-babble that results and the easy cover this gives to those that mean ill and/or do ill in the end in asserted loose projected ends of utopia justifying any means).

At some point there needs to be realisation things that are actually falsifiable (as Karl Popper put it) deserve more immediate priority than things that can never be proven untrue and are thus the road to dangers on the road of utopia (that exists subjectively in the mind) given the realised human coercion that has clearly resulted a number of times even in the relative "enlightened" age of progress of the last few centuries.

But that is likely offtopic to get into the weeds about for our purposes, given what concerns us today is the concentration of power that results in our current day that becomes circular self-fulfilling justification by the same powerful (that see no reason to share/distribute it in interest of aligning actual competencies that exist the most with the actual needs of society).

I think a number of psychological studies found the 90% can be beholden quite easily to the 10% as long as the 10% exert the sufficient pressure here.

Less raw number of functional angles on offer here (we the powers that be need to exist at all costs, otherwise the entirety will not exist), the more concentration of it exists for this to happen essentially.

Its a real problem, things can turn extremely anti-functional. There's no sufficient degree of appreciation for intellectualism, progress and well functioning competent institutions (all of which must be given enough space away from those that have concentrated power, that is why the most successful countries have this delineated well and consistently).

This is why I have explained to Joe and others I think the answer lies in more functional nationstates to arise, whatever their original formative ethos/inheritance. The pressures from the past and future (w.r.t retribution/vindication/redemption of the past....or extreme future utopia no matter the cost) lead to basic extreme social conservative vs extreme social liberal for example. These have manifestations and nuances in all countries at various degrees.

Mitigating all this needs the proper feedback flow and competency intersections to actually get from A to B to then be able to get to C and keep up with human ingenuity and social progress....and power made to serve this rather than being the ultimate end in of itself.

That is what I mean in the end by the bunker state. In a bunker, those with the guns have everyone convinced by the fear of whats out there....the existence is defined as a bunker. This burdens every other interaction needed to function cohesively. Bunkers are important (given human fear of other humans has objective proven reasons in past), but they must take their place in vast array of what needs to be done....in greater interests of what the whole entirety needs actually are (this needs the proper networking to be able to develop, rather than insular know-all omniscience assertion of those that have the greatest means and power)

With this praxis worldwide, one of the greatest interests ultimately hopefully expresses itself, in that the fear itself being mitigated to the largest possible extent in the collective species.

Why do you think I rank certain Pakistani members here, a select few....as made of far better stuff mentally than a much larger amount present circling in same wake of their fear driven ego? Those that "get it" versus those that really do not. Same goes for Indians I find here and other places too....and every nationality I have interacted with in enough capacity in the end.

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO, power should indeed be balanced/hedged/distributed by proven competencies as far as possible.

A bunker/security state is where this has been concentrated in a power for power sake rationale (using say fear of some outside entity).

So competencies outside of the power realm more often than not are rejected, squandered and left to whither. So that's what I meant by that earlier.

Every nationstate has degrees of this, but the intensities and opportunity costs vary immensely generally depending on how much of the bunker state has been systematized and entrenched. Huge natural resource per person (say energy) can bypass the raw macroeconomic pitfalls to some degree, but thats about the only route (and the wealth ends up getting concentrated internally as result too)....and its highly dependent on broader competent countries outside yours having developed the uses for this energy in the first place (and thus willing to trade their products for it etc).

Where there is no natural resource abundance, human resource is the only way out and this is what is often left underdeveloped by power concentrations who do not have the wherewithal at the resolutions needed for that (i.e harnessing more positive psyche with broader competencies in the population and the distribution and check and balance and feedback process of the less-powerful that needs to be systematized).

This can definitely visit a more industrialised country like the USSR as well in its own way like you point out if the root-flaw has been gestated and not corrected/dissipated over time due to no proper feedback and change combined with incredible fiscal resources consistently put towards military and heavy industry and incredible immoral approach to citizenry that posed political or other challenges inside (Gulags, disappearances, deliberate famines, collective exterminations, extreme security state apparatus etc).

i.e Extreme Marxism may be the largest modern day representation of it along with extreme social conservatism.

Its manifestation in the USSR (And north korea in extreme fashion to this day) is not surprising phenomenon, GOSPLAN and all.

Gorby tried to shift things too quickly and things unravelled in quick order. Long story in end but it shows the predicament.

To understand the root of where things like fascism, marxism, national socialism et al expressed themselves in the 20th century, needs a good detailed read of the 19th century, with say Karl Marx...and how materialism entrenched itself as be-all end-all within this domain and the shoddiness of the moral and logical basis used in large parts here (the old ploy of sounding smart but not giving an actual cogent structured smart reasoning)

To promote ideology that inserts powerful at any cost (the bunker state psyche) within a social setup's raison d'etre (purpose, meaning etc) to hold the maximum psychological grasp possible.

Then you have to look into Hegel at some point and what he leaves "up in the air" in his extremely flawed approach to dialectics IMO (that to me is harnessed by the powerful easily in a "trust us, we see furthest and we know whats best" by engaging in various circular psychobabble that influenced Marx, Gentile et al. downstream in their various own ways...and continue to leave an impact to this day if you have a power-class that is too insular and top-down control-freak oriented etc)

This then takes a longer journey into Plato's approach (and its flawed harnessing downstream in philosophy broadly) and the hermeticism that influenced him too. Things that need to be understood to need proper bounding, rather than left unbounded (and the easy-street for nonsensical self-referential pseudo-babble that results and the easy cover this gives to those that mean ill and/or do ill in the end in asserted loose projected ends of utopia justifying any means).

At some point there needs to be realisation things that are actually falsifiable (as Karl Popper put it) deserve more immediate priority than things that can never be proven untrue and are thus the road to dangers on the road of utopia (that exists subjectively in the mind) given the realised human coercion that has clearly resulted a number of times even in the relative "enlightened" age of progress of the last few centuries.

But that is likely offtopic to get into the weeds about for our purposes, given what concerns us today is the concentration of power that results in our current day that becomes circular self-fulfilling justification by the same powerful (that see no reason to share/distribute it in interest of aligning actual competencies that exist the most with the actual needs of society).

I think a number of psychological studies found the 90% can be beholden quite easily to the 10% as long as the 10% exert the sufficient pressure here.

Less raw number of functional angles on offer here (we the powers that be need to exist at all costs, otherwise the entirety will not exist), the more concentration of it exists for this to happen essentially.

Its a real problem, things can turn extremely anti-functional. There's no sufficient degree of appreciation for intellectualism, progress and well functioning competent institutions (all of which must be given enough space away from those that have concentrated power, that is why the most successful countries have this delineated well and consistently).

This is why I have explained to Joe and others I think the answer lies in more functional nationstates to arise, whatever their original formative ethos/inheritance. The pressures from the past and future (w.r.t retribution/vindication/redemption of the past....or extreme future utopia no matter the cost) lead to basic extreme social conservative vs extreme social liberal for example. These have manifestations and nuances in all countries at various degrees.

Mitigating all this needs the proper feedback flow and competency intersections to actually get from A to B to then be able to get to C and keep up with human ingenuity and social progress....and power made to serve this rather than being the ultimate end in of itself.

That is what I mean in the end by the bunker state. In a bunker, those with the guns have everyone convinced by the fear of whats out there....the existence is defined as a bunker. This burdens every other interaction needed to function cohesively. Bunkers are important (given human fear of other humans has objective proven reasons in past), but they must take their place in vast array of what needs to be done....in greater interests of what the whole entirety needs actually are (this needs the proper networking to be able to develop, rather than insular know-all omniscience assertion of those that have the greatest means and power)

With this praxis worldwide, one of the greatest interests ultimately hopefully expresses itself, in that the fear itself being mitigated to the largest possible extent in the collective species.

Why do you think I rank certain Pakistani members here, a select few....as made of far better stuff mentally than a much larger amount present circling in same wake of their fear driven ego? Those that "get it" versus those that really do not. Same goes for Indians I find here and other places too....and every nationality I have interacted with in enough capacity in the end.

A very well thought out post, I appreciate it, and will try to address some salient points. The length and breath of your post will take time to properly process and address, so perhaps fellow members may also contribute a commentary upon it as well.

If they won’t concede to whom they may begrudgingly accept as intellectually more competent and be given a modest amount of an ever growing pie, even if those intellectuals go slow with reforms, to allow for a good enough approach instead of utopia and potential break the system, then perhaps they may have to concede to a rapidly growing masses. As with guerrillas in a rapidly growing population, COIN becomes harder if not impossible, as expectations and human terrain outstrip resources to contain them, as perhaps they failed to learn in the erstwhile East Pakistan, and the US failed to realize in Afghanistan.

To this end, I have noticed PTI adopting a strategy involving aligning with religious parties and sidelining the three “establishment backed” parties; PML-N, PPP, and MQM, not unlike the Talibs sidelining the government in Kabul for dealing with the Americans. If the establishment didn’t learn from that war, the population and PTI in particular surely did.

Now because the extent of what happened then (in Bangladesh) is orders of magnitude worse then what is happening now (in Pakistan), and because we have a leader the people feel they could follow, rather then a process that breaks down the nation, this could be a transformative event. Not because of the merits of the man, but he has the stood against the status quo and enough of the people supported him.

Their arguments of the India threat, to justify the bunker mentality, are not completely without merit, but exaggerated in places; culturally and economically more so than physical.

As for the caliber of the stock, I find people fall back upon what is safe, because while you and I can whittle away our evening on metaphysical discourse, they have to live in a world that doesn’t afford them the space to safely decorate from the dogma.

 

[Nilgiri]

Thanks for tagging me, I'll be reading the posts with avid interest.

I joined PDF a decade ago and more. It seems to me it still is a situation where, personally, there is little to say about Pakistan. That country exists not because some miracle worker brought it into being. Not because it is ordained to come into existence. It exists because the people who live in this land want it to exist. As long as they go on thinking that way, it will exist. It will have problems in plenty. It may lose parts. It may gain parts. That's their karma.

India occupies my mind and takes up all my attention. I'd rather worry about whether my grandson will have this country, this India or a variation, that he can call his own.

Looking forward to reading your posts.

I'll get through the replies slowly here chronologically as possible

Lot of the subject intersects with great number of issues in India.

Folks like you see them head on, others skew their angles to feel better first and tell you you are the one doing the skewing. This phenomenon itself is found broadly in the species....how much of the physics has to make way for the metaphysics first.

Then it boils down to what and how people discuss, understand and best resolve all of this.

Many are highly obstinate (in fact I've found most are, just the issues and names change, i.e who are the regular customers at the saloon that is the human mind), i.e i'm right and you aren't, I see it wholly and fairly, period and therefore you do not...

It gets concentrated where powerful levers on whole society exist, the costs only increase. Power doesn't sit well with competency (as competency in its essence sees the larger diverse broader picture to some degree and being transparent in figuring this out)....and so they are eternal opponents to some large degree.....why Orion was placed on the opposite end of sky from the Scorpion and all that....and the scorpion's heart even gaining the moniker as the "rival of Mars". These things are deep in our psyche.

Power when aligned with darker compulsions are anti-thought (bend all thought to one asserted thought).

Competence and morality at their core understand the ability to entertain a thought without sharing it. That is the basic conundrum.

Alfred North Whitehead said 'The purpose of thinking is to let the ideas die instead of us dying.' like I mentioned to you previously.

Yes the same Whitehead who was a great mentor of Bertrand Russell whom folks like kalyanda deeply admire (and quote consistently) for a reason....and a good reason.

These things (enough mental tolerance to form proper repertoire of grappling with logic and ethics) are simply too fleeting and scarce in the species still.

We are an species eternally in flux in the end. Whitehead himself was proponent of very interesting philosophy of process (rather than material) He seems to have intuitively got this and expressed it expansively as well. Maybe its all just matter of time for all these great impacts to finally reach the larger populations.

 

[indushek]

I'll get through the replies slowly here chronologically as possible

Lot of the subject intersects with great number of issues in India.

Folks like you see them head on, others skew their angles to feel better first and tell you you are the one doing the skewing. This phenomenon itself is found broadly in the species....how much of the physics has to make way for the metaphysics first.

Then it boils down to what and how people discuss, understand and best resolve all of this.

Many are highly obstinate (in fact I've found most are, just the issues and names change, i.e who are the regular customers at the saloon that is the human mind), i.e i'm right and you aren't, I see it wholly and fairly, period and therefore you do not...

It gets concentrated where powerful levers on whole society exist, the costs only increase. Power doesn't sit well with competency (as competency in its essence sees the larger diverse broader picture to some degree and being transparent in figuring this out)....and so they are eternal opponents to some large degree.....why Orion was placed on the opposite end of sky from the Scorpion and all that....and the scorpion's heart even gaining the moniker as the "rival of Mars". These things are deep in our psyche.

Power when aligned with darker compulsions are anti-thought (bend all thought to one asserted thought).

Competence and morality at their core understand the ability to entertain a thought without sharing it. That is the basic conundrum.

Alfred North Whitehead said 'The purpose of thinking is to let the ideas die instead of us dying.' like I mentioned to you previously.

Yes the same Whitehead who was a great mentor of Bertrand Russell whom folks like kalyanda deeply admire (and quote consistently) for a reason....and a good reason.

These things (enough mental tolerance to form proper repertoire of grappling with logic and ethics) are simply too fleeting and scarce in the species still.

We are an species eternally in flux in the end. Whitehead himself was proponent of very interesting philosophy of process (rather than material) He seems to have intuitively got this and expressed it expansively as well. Maybe its all just matter of time for all these great impacts to finally reach the larger populations.

I don't know why but, I have begun to feel that Congress Party and Pakistan's Military establishment are mirror images of one another.

One kept saying that we brought you all illiterates Azadi, so you are expected to vote for us and listen to our intellectual/moral lessons always. The coterie around it and the intellectual class that was given media time, through print or awards or air time felt this is eternal.

The other said that, we keep that big bad wolf at bay so you better keep supporting us. Everyone else built their little little nests around this big boy, and saw them falling to ground and then rebuilt, but kept playing the game till Mr Khan said no. Ego clashing with ego

Both forces are on the path of decline, and don't want to accept reality. Maybe such forces just wither away, but who am I to say what future holds.

Its so curious that in both cases, its the general illiterate public that is teaching lesson to both powers and others around them. That you are there because of us, and you better learn it. Some still don't of course, as its hard to read winds of change I guess.

I read a story in school, about three fish in a pond. Sumati (One with excellent thinking and even foresight I guess, it means) Kalamati (One who goes with time, but at least learns in time?) and Mandamati (One who never learns). As the pond started drying the first one obviously left, and the second followed the first. The third got fished out

Both Congress and its intellectual (Liberal/Secular or whatever tingles ones fancy) affiliates on this side, and Pakistani Establishment on the other side might be the third fish?

 

[Nilgiri]

Shall we dare say Pakistan needs a BJP type quasi RSS mentality? So then the pan-Islamist IK was somewhat right in his approach if bumbling in implementation?

No. This will take Pakistan quicker to ruin. It has much less operating margin than India due to the longer term systematic issue within it.

Pakistan needs decades of as high competent + high moral based people leading the charge and delegating to more of the same (all willing to get feedback from the larger population and actualise things relevant to this).....simply to reverse the decades of anti-competency + sheer top-down insularity that has become the default in very large degree.

This only changes if there is some change in the bunker approach deep in its core though (that essentially led to East Pakistan splitting away needlessly already in manner it did, and little to no lessons learned from that long term).

The current-powerful have to more genuinely trust Pakistan itself....and know their own specific lanes. How that happens though, shrug.

BJP-RSS are largely antithesis of this, but India has grown larger operating margins for them to harness while they are in driver's seat so to speak. There's a longer parallel w.r.t CCP in China too. It's come to the point where CCP-boneheads have declared the vast immoral excesses of Mao's era were merited and required in some malthusian way and directly connected to what the CCP has since done/taken credit for (whatever they impeded all across this too).

These size of parties can deploy things in more absolute ways (unavailable to Pakistan), harnessing things that grew/developed/inherited separate and despite what they did on crucial things. The shielding/gaslighting/lieing and disguises on offer for this are also unavailable to Pakistan where things are much more black-white polarised long term.

If say a pool is vast, the displacement from disturbance takes long while to reverberate (and significant options for resistance and obstacles formed by earlier hedging in the system developed). In much smaller pool, there is situation of multiple reverberations and standing waves given smaller size and if no hedging done by say proper principled dispensation existing in some capacity long enough.

 

[Nilgiri]

Joe you hit it on the nail. The resilience of the people is absolutely amazing and it is their main strength. Pakistan has lost one big part more than 50 years ago and outside influence is trying its best to do more of the same (with inside help) but so far they have not succeeded.
The post-election scenarios hark to another post-election situation in 1977 when the military finally intervened with Gen Z toppling Bhutto and 2 years later he was hanged.
Today the most popular leader since The Great Jinnah is already in jail and now in the election chaos there is talk of a military takeover but the people won't have it. The people may be illiterate (40% or more) but they are media- intelligent. They are not ignorant but media-savvy.
You know how they voted after the bat symbol was banned. They only made sure that they knew the "symbol " of their constituencies whatsoever it was and voted 🗳 wholeheartedly. They didn't even know the name of the candidate in most cases - they were voting for the Man behind the Bars!!!.
And this is the conundrum the mil-establishment faces. Their biggest challenge to their existence!

Resilience is one thing, but laypeople only have so many options to network and organise given the pressures of day to day living.

Red lines and actual breaking points (to get things changed inside out at the core), only can be seen in hindsight afterwards....because these are always schrodinger cat kind of situation during a current time....because for every resilience of laypeople and peasantry, there is also resilience of the powerful to keep what they have and deploy the 10% vs 90% psychological phenomenon I mentioned earlier....given the greater means they have and the sacrifice it ultimately takes to remove those means by the 90%.

The basic height and surveillance advantage the motte has over the bailey and the bailey has over the larger environs. Why these privileges and hierarchies have long been seen in civilisation long term....given the golden rule really starts to have limited transmission past one's own inner trust circle.

This affects public morale and thus potentials and actualities on the issue.

The mil-establishment needs to Shed its "we are the saviours " mentality. The Saviours are the People of Pakistan .

Bingo. Change starts with them (if its to be peacefully as can be).

This is the exact root of issue I describe w.r.t "Bunker psyche". Pakistan is way too large, diverse and has abundant potentials to be run this way. It needs larger intersection of competencies with power than is currently allowed.

Pakistan has secured its basic existence in the long term with nukes even on this aspect. So it become case of other power centres (outside mil-establishment) making this case with the public that its overdue to listen to other parts of the psyche in the population.

Those that have something that are imperative to civilisation directional apex (be it power, social prestige, wealth) rarely give it away by own accord past nominal degree as the status quo is highly beneficial.

This is from that baked in deficit in the species w.r.t golden rule to begin with, charity here is small collectively....it is one large reason govts form and exist in this void to begin with instead of some utopia of anarchy everywhere.

So the question arises what are the other power centres in Pakistan that can do this long term. That is what is in deficit, despite the people's own resilience.

It is sordid thing to look at North Korea for example and see extremity of it in practice. Can and will those folks there be able to take power over to redistribute it for their own needs? It is not an inevitable thing at all, there is high degree of pain made apparent in potential sacrifices for a collective sense to be "worth it".

 

[Nilgiri]

As soon as I think I am getting somewhere with disengagement, here you go again with though provoking posts that have the seeds of great discussions in them. My problem remains that most here - barring a few distinct exceptions - are simply not ready to engage in such discussions, let along grasp even remotely the content and definitely not the intent.

The thread that you quoted I have followed with interest, but it is still sadly predictable in the steady denial and obfuscation of the core issues. The system is working exactly as designed and it will continue to deliver the results it is designed to achieve, without a doubt. The reasons it persists in the country (and indeed in this forum) is because we simply do not feel the need to change any of it.

Need I go on further? If I do, many here should be prepared to be offended, and so should I be to bear the inevitable fallout.

Throw the darts at the board, and see where they land....let others do the same and people that have appreciation for darts know the score in end heh....and who to then keep tabs on for a better round later.

That's all I do with discussions these day mostly (further away from those that directly impact me and mine etc).

Even on this side of pond, I have found myself putting more equidistant space lately from "left" and "right" (especially their extremities)....given the extremities seem to be permeating/guiding more of the gooey middle in various psychological ways the gooey middle seems to not appreciate or even be fine/reconciled with.

It involved putting some friendships on hiatus for a while, these have costs but you know what principles are in the end, like you said to me. Shrug.

Other parts of world have the same basic archetype of thing going on between "social-progressive", "social liberal" and "social-conservative" (since these broad categories offer template of the person's metaphysics construct that shape his/her perception and bias on the real physics). Many progressives and conservatives call themselves liberal too....and in end I say to them like Seti did "I judge not by words, but by deeds!"

The degrees and intensities and tier of issue (basic, modern/current, post-modern) involved change in end w.r.t the SP-SL-SC trifecta as I call it.

PDF is trivial stuff in the end given Pakistan's issues are trivial in larger sense of things (the things that need to be done if one is wise and capable enough to understand them rather than just sensing them or denying them).

But trivial things are often the hardest to realise and actually do for a reason, it is the eternal troubling dichotomy.

We would all be better off if these archetype-divides... recognised their deep differences but always knew they were in something bigger together, i.e friendship past those differences.

Like a GK Chesterton and Bernard Shaw friendship.

Pity how I find this is exception rather than rule with SP-SL-SC stuff (and many such equivalent distances in the human reality).

I have found myself frustratingly scolding or chastising one (on some hypocrisy or rank immoral position taken), and the other automatically thinks I have taken his side and is somehow vindicated on everything....thinking I never saw them with same hand in same cookie jar.

It was mirrored verbatim in spanish movie I saw 20 years ago or so (to improve my Spanish)....in my head I still call it "usted vs usted" to this day. The polite usted was being used very sarcastically (by elder with 2 kids, one thinking he was safely innocent).....but I forgot the name of the movie.

PDF drama that has gone on, impacted and renewed is only inevitable one in its own context....just like Pakistan's own macrocosm w.r.t world. Interesting, but not exceptionally different.

 

[Fatman17]

Resilience is one thing, but laypeople only have so many options to network and organise given the pressures of day to day living.

Red lines and actual breaking points (to get things changed inside out at the core), only can be seen in hindsight afterwards....because these are always schrodinger cat kind of situation during a current time....because for every resilience of laypeople and peasantry, there is also resilience of the powerful to keep what they have and deploy the 10% vs 90% psychological phenomenon I mentioned earlier....given the greater means they have and the sacrifice it ultimately takes to remove those means by the 90%.

The basic height and surveillance advantage the motte has over the bailey and the bailey has over the larger environs. Why these privileges and hierarchies have long been seen in civilisation long term....given the golden rule really starts to have limited transmission past one's own inner trust circle.

This affects public morale and thus potentials and actualities on the issue.


Bingo. Change starts with them (if its to be peacefully as can be).

This is the exact root of issue I describe w.r.t "Bunker psyche". Pakistan is way too large, diverse and has abundant potentials to be run this way. It needs larger intersection of competencies with power than is currently allowed.

Pakistan has secured its basic existence in the long term with nukes even on this aspect. So it become case of other power centres (outside mil-establishment) making this case with the public that its overdue to listen to other parts of the psyche in the population.

Those that have something that are imperative to civilisation directional apex (be it power, social prestige, wealth) rarely give it away by own accord past nominal degree as the status quo is highly beneficial.

This is from that baked in deficit in the species w.r.t golden rule to begin with, charity here is small collectively....it is one large reason govts form and exist in this void to begin with instead of some utopia of anarchy everywhere.

So the question arises what are the other power centres in Pakistan that can do this long term. That is what is in deficit, despite the people's own resilience.

It is sordid thing to look at North Korea for example and see extremity of it in practice. Can and will those folks there be able to take power over to redistribute it for their own needs? It is not an inevitable thing at all, there is high degree of pain made apparent in potential sacrifices for a collective sense to be "worth it".

The powers have nothing new to offer and that is the reason they are trying to hold on but the people have realised that especially the Youth who need education and jobs but none is available. It's swallowed by the mil-establishment. Taxes to be collected this year amount to 9.4 Trillion PKR and the non-developmental expenses amount to 14.5 Trillion PKR (perks of the generals and babus). The economy is in shambles, business is fleeing to the ME. The poor farmer sweats and toils to grow his crops and gets nothing in return. Sounds perfect situation for a revolution but that is not the answer. The people are tired of their narrative. The sheen has come off the military as never before. The politics of the dynasties and oligarchs has been defeated in the elections. The system from within is unravelling. I don't know about philosophy and syndromes but just spelling out the hard truth - after all "Pakistan is a Hard Country " and it cannot be ignored. That is what the people are saying. Maybe in the end the Gun wins over the Pen and that would be disappointing and disastrous.

 

[VCheng]

Other parts of world have the same basic archetype of thing going on between "social-progressive", "social liberal" and "social-conservative" (since these broad categories offer template of the person's metaphysics construct that shape his/her perception and bias on the real physics). Many progressives and conservatives call themselves liberal too....and in end I say to them like Seti did "I judge not by words, but by deeds!"

In this day and age, such labels do not mean much anymore. Many using them simply do not know what they mean, and many others use them to cloak their own real intentions. Judging by deeds is the best way not to be mislead by words or labels, hence my insistence here on PDF that results matter and claims do not. Those who dislike being called out or who get upset at their claims not being accepted are doing so only because they have no substance to back up their positions, leading to an inevitable deterioration of the discussion and environment, which thrives further due to the lax moderation.

PDF is trivial stuff in the end given Pakistan's issues are trivial in larger sense of things (the things that need to be done if one is wise and capable enough to understand them rather than just sensing them or denying them).

But trivial things are often the hardest to realise and actually do for a reason, it is the eternal troubling dichotomy.

It depends on whether we believe in a top down or a bottom up approach.

Many here will choose to keep their head in the clouds and talk about broad global visions and pan-regional concepts breathtaking in their grandiosity, and ignore completely the ground realities that are inconvenient to their preferred visions and agendas so as to deal a death blow to them. I have used the analogy of the desire to build the tallest skyscraper in the world, but trying to start only from the 50th floor on upwards, without any foundation or the lower floors, which are simply too much hard non-glamorous tedious work requiring a lot of planning and basic education and training.

I believe in the bottom up approach, where one starts in the immediate vicinity of doing what one can do, rather than grandiose visions. I once posted the example of my friend who went with me on a motorcycle trip to New Mexico. We both were upset at the amount of litter people had thrown about at rest stops, particularly empty water bottles. I wanted to write to the governor and tourism boards to complain and ask for more enforcement. He laughed at me and said he will do that too. And he then proceeded to pick up two pieces of trash every time we stopped. At the end of the trip he had cleaned up a whole barrelful of trash, all by himself, and left the place better than when he found it. To me that was highly instructive, to say the least.

Of course, many here just laughed at me and the stupidity of my friend when I posted that here to illustrate how we can begin by doing what is possible, no matter how little, around us, rather than telling others how to do their jobs better. Trivial things? I would say not. That is how real changes begin, and how magnificent results are achieved.

We would all be better off if these archetype-divides... recognised their deep differences but always knew they were in something bigger together, i.e friendship past those differences.

Friendship past differences. Amen to that, brother. Amen. But it takes a broadness of mind and a willingness to accept new ideas and concepts that can take many out of their chosen comfort zones and that can be a scary thing to minds not used to freedom.

PDF drama that has gone on, impacted and renewed is only inevitable one in its own context....just like Pakistan's own macrocosm w.r.t world. Interesting, but not exceptionally different.

Given my top down vs bottom up argument presented above, I am sad that this PDF drama is predictably scripted to reach its logical result, simply because I tried and failed to implement that approach here: do what one can to implement at least the basic rules step by step. But the uproar at being told to not change titles or post copious amounts of agenda driven drivel upset too many people so used to getting there way that management simply caved in to their demands. All I have to show for my time and effort is the satisfaction of having tried my best and failed.

May be someday things will change. As I am often told here, there is always hope.

 

[Nilgiri]

A very well thought out post, I appreciate it, and will try to address some salient points. The length and breath of your post will take time to properly process and address, so perhaps fellow members may also contribute a commentary upon it as well.

If they won’t concede to whom they may begrudgingly accept as intellectually more competent and be given a modest amount of an ever growing pie, even if those intellectuals go slow with reforms, to allow for a good enough approach instead of utopia and potential break the system, then perhaps they may have to concede to a rapidly growing masses. As with guerrillas in a rapidly growing population, COIN becomes harder if not impossible, as expectations and human terrain outstrip resources to contain them, as perhaps they failed to learn in the erstwhile East Pakistan, and the US failed to realize in Afghanistan.

To this end, I have noticed PTI adopting a strategy involving aligning with religious parties and sidelining the three “establishment backed” parties; PML-N, PPP, and MQM, not unlike the Talibs sidelining the government in Kabul for dealing with the Americans. If the establishment didn’t learn from that war, the population and PTI in particular surely did.

Now because the extent of what happened then (in Bangladesh) is orders of magnitude worse then what is happening now (in Pakistan), and because we have a leader the people feel they could follow, rather then a process that breaks down the nation, this could be a transformative event. Not because of the merits of the man, but he has the stood against the status quo and enough of the people supported him.

Their arguments of the India threat, to justify the bunker mentality, are not completely without merit, but exaggerated in places; culturally and economically more so than physical.

As for the caliber of the stock, I find people fall back upon what is safe, because while you and I can whittle away our evening on metaphysical discourse, they have to live in a world that doesn’t afford them the space to safely decorate from the dogma.

The thing is the India threat is addressed for decades and maybe rest of this century by the nuclear WMD.

The rest that is left now is those outside the bunker-psyche impressing this basic fact and making way for other psyche (more uplifting, broad and positive ones) to have a fair chance to make their case to the broader populace sentiments and needs.

This is kind of stuff that Adam Smith goes into quite good detail in theory of moral sentiment....which is important precursor to the "Wealth of Nations" that he is more known for. i.e they why regarding mercantilism, slavery and such things (a narrow immoral psyche at root) needed to make way for what we call as capitalism today....i.e something broader, expansive (in relation to the golden rule and moral principle sustained application).

It took a long time and effort and plenty of reversals (and continued work in progress) well after Smith to make these changes in the largest systems of note at the time....though some would argue it happened quite quickly all things considered (a century being a drop of time etc). Its incredibly difficult stuff regardless.

Developing countries today need to harness and assemble people capable of taking and prioritizing the best lessons of this recent past.....into concrete action and followup and feedback. That's all it is in the end, there is no need to repeat same mistakes of the past and squander precious life, time and mental resource, the great opportunity costs that economics can never really measure at all. Its quite simple in end.....but simplest things are hardest to do as they upset the most people that fear this stuff, and they're often the one's benefiting from all the excessive delays and costs to begin with.

 

[FuturePAF]

The thing is the India threat is addressed for decades and maybe rest of this century by the nuclear WMD.

The rest that is left now is those outside the bunker-psyche impressing this basic fact and making way for other psyche (more uplifting, broad and positive ones) to have a fair chance to make their case to the broader populace sentiments and needs.

This is kind of stuff that Adam Smith goes into quite good detail in theory of moral sentiment....which is important precursor to the "Wealth of Nations" that he is more known for. i.e they why regarding mercantilism, slavery and such things (a narrow immoral psyche at root) needed to make way for what we call as capitalism today....i.e something broader, expansive (in relation to the golden rule and moral principle sustained application).

It took a long time and effort and plenty of reversals (and continued work in progress) well after Smith to make these changes in the largest systems of note at the time....though some would argue it happened quite quickly all things considered (a century being a drop of time etc). Its incredibly difficult stuff regardless.

Developing countries today need to harness and assemble people capable of taking and prioritizing the best lessons of this recent past.....into concrete action and followup and feedback. That's all it is in the end, there is no need to repeat same mistakes of the past and squander precious life, time and mental resource, the great opportunity costs that economics can never really measure at all. Its quite simple in end.....but simplest things are hardest to do as they upset the most people that fear this stuff, and they're often the one's benefiting from all the excessive delays and costs to begin with.

This is why those that benefit from the status quo, culminating in the legacy politicians and political parties, as their representatives, can’t be the harbingers of a reorientation. They are too embedded in maintaining the edifice of the ancien regime, the aristocratic imagery of stability and order.

PTI was also a part of this calculus, but the actions of the last two years, have given them new life. As the Shakespeare saying goes; “Be not afraid of greatness, some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.”

Now is the time to create the space for the intellectuals to gather and take their rightful place as our leaders, or at least be amongst the advisors to our rightful democratically elected leaders (we have to be careful we don’t give power/rise to a Robespierre type of intellectual though) within the bounds of checks and balances.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't know why but, I have begun to feel that Congress Party and Pakistan's Military establishment are mirror images of one another.

One kept saying that we brought you all illiterates Azadi, so you are expected to vote for us and listen to our intellectual/moral lessons always. The coterie around it and the intellectual class that was given media time, through print or awards or air time felt this is eternal.

The other said that, we keep that big bad wolf at bay so you better keep supporting us. Everyone else built their little little nests around this big boy, and saw them falling to ground and then rebuilt, but kept playing the game till Mr Khan said no. Ego clashing with ego

Both forces are on the path of decline, and don't want to accept reality. Maybe such forces just wither away, but who am I to say what future holds.

Its so curious that in both cases, its the general illiterate public that is teaching lesson to both powers and others around them. That you are there because of us, and you better learn it. Some still don't of course, as its hard to read winds of change I guess.

I read a story in school, about three fish in a pond. Sumati (One with excellent thinking and even foresight I guess, it means) Kalamati (One who goes with time, but at least learns in time?) and Mandamati (One who never learns). As the pond started drying the first one obviously left, and the second followed the first. The third got fished out

Both Congress and its intellectual (Liberal/Secular or whatever tingles ones fancy) affiliates on this side, and Pakistani Establishment on the other side might be the third fish?

INC with Pak mil-establishment is fanciful case of pareildolia.

INC literally played by the book and has given power away repeated number of times, including the current dispensation that is highly ingrateful towards the system that brought it to power.

Entirely different to Pak mil-establishment, near exact opposites.

The costs of INC playing by book and accepting verdict in TN w.r.t Kamaraj et al. is long story just by itself on the corruption, identity politics and festering costs impacted on TN by its local parties. Then TN has done "above average" regardless with its severely deficient political-lot, thats pitiful thing to think of regarding the North Indian bulk.

It sure is pity that INC could not make a sustained case with folks like Kamaraj, Patnaik and cultivate/promote a larger corps of them for federal and state level to add to great start by Nehru and then Shastri at the federal level.

The decline of INC core principles under Indira Gandhi and wrong lessons BJP has managed to take from even that episode (to add to their vastly unprincipled basis to begin with) means India problems are very unique to it in end now politically and socially. That is where the great divergences happen in my own family w.r.t congress loyalist support and those that turned against it. IG was the basic litmus test time....but then you have hypocrisies downstream now with bunch of my family on same issue (whether they recognise it openly or claim not to).....they like this side of coin thats all.

Its not fair to compare with what Pakistan's are. Those are unique to Pakistan and have impacted in all manner of ways unique to them too.

 

[indushek]

INC with Pak mil-establishment is fanciful case of pareildolia.

INC literally played by the book and has given power away repeated number of times, including the current dispensation that is highly ingrateful towards the system that brought it to power.

Entirely different to Pak mil-establishment, near exact opposites.

The costs of INC playing by book and accepting verdict in TN w.r.t Kamaraj et al. is long story just by itself on the corruption, identity politics and festering costs impacted on TN by its local parties. Then TN has done "above average" regardless with its severely deficient political-lot, thats pitiful thing to think of regarding the North Indian bulk.

It sure is pity that INC could not make a sustained case with folks like Kamaraj, Patnaik and cultivate/promote a larger corps of them for federal and state level to add to great start by Nehru and then Shastri at the federal level.

The decline of INC core principles under Indira Gandhi and wrong lessons BJP has managed to take from even that episode (to add to their vastly unprincipled basis to begin with) means India problems are very unique to it in end now politically and socially. That is where the great divergences happen in my own family w.r.t congress loyalist support and those that turned against it. IG was the basic litmus test time....but then you have hypocrisies downstream now with bunch of my family on same issue (whether they recognise it openly or claim not to).....they like this side of coin thats all.

Its not fair to compare with what Pakistan's are. Those are unique to Pakistan and have impacted in all manner of ways unique to them too.

Ok just learnt a new English word today, as I have no idea what pareidolia is till googling it.

Also read upon Wiki about Kamaraj, as I have no idea on who is. Interesting story and seems to be a principled person, from what I read.

In my case I have no fascination with any party, am more like one who enjoys a movie fight happening in real instead on a screen. I have said this before too and, I have no trust in any political party. I am a nobody to them (as in a middle class person, they don't care if I vote or not vote till recently, as the poor and minority is whose vote matters more or less), and they are a nobody to me. No party will work for any community or group, unless it helps them politically.

Was the case more or less till that MF Chidambaram and Sonia (2014), decided to break my state into two. To top this off the blatant and brazen way corruption happened (2012-13), before the current lot came just added to my list. Is the current lot some answer, no they aren't. But then am a nobody to them, and they are to me. Still I will vote for them, just to feed my sadistic happiness of seeing INC down the garbage drain some day. I don't think I have to hide my hate (and its horrible to see this nasty bunch back in power, in this state again but it is what it is)

Now to the pareidolia

What do you mean by, playing by the book? Accepting the political verdict?
Including current dispensation you say, can you point out where INC gave power to BJP of all? If its accepting democratic principles, are we to put a garland around their neck for doing the right thing? If this is what you meant, they will become true mirror image of Pak Establishment and not the other side of the coin (had they not done what they did).

I don't mind if you say that, am seeing things where there aren't .. but below are my reasons

While Pak Establishment uses India to stay in power, INC uses the idea of a liberal nation/secularism along with past laurels to stay in power. Both parties use this reason to fatten themselves, at the cost of people. Both use dirty tricks against opponents, and basically taught how to play dirty (In case of Pak Establishment, the opponents can't pay them back due to obvious reasons of course). Both have operated for decades, with near impunity and managed to have no opposition due to these dirty tricks. Both know that they are being disliked, but don't want to change for betterment of their people.

Yes both issues are completely different, and the circumstances are different too (given the separate country and all). At the core however are two power centers, who have operated for long time and veered off their original course and at the cost of the people they are supposed to be working for. That I don't think is any pareidolia

 

[SoulSpokesman]

@Oscar sb,

That man has been unfortunately delegated to the paper notes

Same with our Baba e Qaum as well. Unfortunate, as far as your nation goes. Fortunate as far as our nation goes.

Regards