The Munir Doctrine

The powers have nothing new to offer and that is the reason they are trying to hold on but the people have realised that especially the Youth who need education and jobs but none is available. It's swallowed by the mil-establishment. Taxes to be collected this year amount to 9.4 Trillion PKR and the non-developmental expenses amount to 14.5 Trillion PKR (perks of the generals and babus). The economy is in shambles, business is fleeing to the ME. The poor farmer sweats and toils to grow his crops and gets nothing in return. Sounds perfect situation for a revolution but that is not the answer. The people are tired of their narrative. The sheen has come off the military as never before. The politics of the dynasties and oligarchs has been defeated in the elections. The system from within is unravelling. I don't know about philosophy and syndromes but just spelling out the hard truth - after all "Pakistan is a Hard Country " and it cannot be ignored. That is what the people are saying. Maybe in the end the Gun wins over the Pen and that would be disappointing and disastrous.

We can only hope for the best. Pakistan is very complex, large country in the end and you have a closer direct read on things than I ever will.

The things disappointing and disastrous had earlier forms. My close friend here in Canada, his dad worked with Zia's admin under Mahbub ul haq. There was old boy club and oligarchy and own form of Gleichschaltung that had formed back even then, you could only work around the edges. This had major impact on his dad later in 1990s as his competence bristled against general's powerplay w.r.t bhutto, sharif musical chairs era....and was essentially shown the door along with bunch of others. Competence is treated cheaply and shoddily in bureaucrat layers. Now all the good brains of his son are enjoyed by Canada exclusively, when really Pakistan could have used many like this sorely.

Later and similarly, when I did my own deep dive in SBP papers for economic reforms and policy headings, there was one very astute lady (I forgot her name, this was in old PDF and I tried to look for that thread I brought this to light, but couldnt find them in limited time) who explained many things quite well....well before Atif Mian expresses them today.

But I could tell from her vague euphemisms regarding more in-depth things not allowed to be pursued much less seeking remedial correction...that she will not be promoted because it likely already ruffled feathers. i.e things she openly addressed to powers that be etc and out of her scope for this study (but quite clear to me she had run into old boys closed room to her).

This happens again and again in Pakistan....I mean more openly they chisel things away from Abdus Salam gravestone "for reasons", cant leave a great mind like that in peace. From that all precedence follows to flex on whomever with less status and open accomplishment.....no matter how deserving they might actually be if you value competence instead of old-boys stale mental issues and power-freak nature.

I mean if its case now of population size having grown even more and divide (and pressures from) with rest of world increased even more etc and this still bringing opening for real change without revolution etc..... you have a point. But it remains to be seen if collectively Pakistani population can express and actualise this intensely.

Iranian friend of mine has waited a long time out here on this side of pond for another revolution in Iran (he didnt like the CIA-Shah or ayatollahs that filled that void)....but he has largely lost hope now, he will never see a normal country "we deserve"..... and only talks about it in various proverbs to me now....knowing I keep in touch with other kinds of Iranians he despises.... "Go ask them what this means" etc.
 
In this day and age, such labels do not mean much anymore. Many using them simply do not know what they mean, and many others use them to cloak their own real intentions. Judging by deeds is the best way not to be mislead by words or labels, hence my insistence here on PDF that results matter and claims do not. Those who dislike being called out or who get upset at their claims not being accepted are doing so only because they have no substance to back up their positions, leading to an inevitable deterioration of the discussion and environment, which thrives further due to the lax moderation.

The microcosm is the microcosm in the end. If you get a microcosm applied to a lasting principle, it remains a microcosm regardless.

The important thing in the end (to the better minded, whether they are in position to make differences now or later) is in the end what are the parallels the microcosm has with the macrocosm.

There are far worse microcosms I have been party to (observing + interacting wise) but heavily disjointed and abnormal with the macrocosm that I had known and still know....so there was only so much relevancy in the end in the nasty bits concerning principles and hypocrisies, ingratitude and all the rest of the "no good deed goes unpunished" stuff.

There are also microcosms that are in far better state than the macrocosm likewise.

So if a microcosm does mirror the macrocosm very well or near perfectly, well it serves a greater purpose to those mindful enough I suppose....without the mental juggling needed to think about how reflecive of reality it actually is in end. That's how I see things anyway.

You try your best with what you have and time you allot for it, just like everything else. There's diamonds, diamonds in the rough (person-wise and topic-wise)...those things matter to me as I see them.The other types of carbon I just leave to be unless there's a real soot problem it creates with the former I suppose.

There are entire contentious/charged topics I totally ignore in many places incl here, because I already had access to great diamonds elsewhere for that and its waste of time for me to really care about its ebbs and flows with the mundane carbon-soot and hot smoke.

Anyway I get where you are coming from, is the long and short of it.


It depends on whether we believe in a top down or a bottom up approach.

Many here will choose to keep their head in the clouds and talk about broad global visions and pan-regional concepts breathtaking in their grandiosity, and ignore completely the ground realities that are inconvenient to their preferred visions and agendas so as to deal a death blow to them. I have used the analogy of the desire to build the tallest skyscraper in the world, but trying to start only from the 50th floor on upwards, without any foundation or the lower floors, which are simply too much hard non-glamorous tedious work requiring a lot of planning and basic education and training.

I believe in the bottom up approach, where one starts in the immediate vicinity of doing what one can do, rather than grandiose visions. I once posted the example of my friend who went with me on a motorcycle trip to New Mexico. We both were upset at the amount of litter people had thrown about at rest stops, particularly empty water bottles. I wanted to write to the governor and tourism boards to complain and ask for more enforcement. He laughed at me and said he will do that too. And he then proceeded to pick up two pieces of trash every time we stopped. At the end of the trip he had cleaned up a whole barrelful of trash, all by himself, and left the place better than when he found it. To me that was highly instructive, to say the least.

Of course, many here just laughed at me and the stupidity of my friend when I posted that here to illustrate how we can begin by doing what is possible, no matter how little, around us, rather than telling others how to do their jobs better. Trivial things? I would say not. That is how real changes begin, and how magnificent results are achieved.
Yah each graduation, the founder of our school (in Singapore), old, rich but very philantrophic.... would give along with the diploma (be it middle school or high school) the story of "The man who planted trees".

Only later in life did I really get his reason for picking that story and that it must have deeply influenced him much earlier in life. For quite some time I thought it was a true account too, but its allegorical, so in a way even better.

We had great community service in that school too (including ecology clean-ups etc)....some number of kids were snobs and brats and unfortunately stayed as such later in life from what I've seen....but good sizeable number had long term takeaways to apply as well.

Practice what you preach. Praxis past just theoria etc etc.

By trivial I meant trivial in the conception of solutions (long known and staring at us, theoria etc). But the action, the praxis is very non-trivial for sure....thats the greatest cost in the end in society.

Friendship past differences. Amen to that, brother. Amen. But it takes a broadness of mind and a willingness to accept new ideas and concepts that can take many out of their chosen comfort zones and that can be a scary thing to minds not used to freedom.

Yah, for longest time I kept looking for a song I know from a pretty early memory of mine, some storytelling cartoon-short outro on TV where it described our entire planet as a spaceship bounding through the milky way....we just call it mother earth. But I have given up on finding it now largely....oh well. Its hit and miss if these things show up somewhere in google or youtube heh. There are whole songs I learned in school that seemingly have no material record out there sometimes....sometimes I keep looking anyway heh.

But in the end its up to enough people to know this ship isnt that big at all.....and like any ship you dont really have that much room in end for strife. Differences are always going to be there, but there has to be hard limits on strife....given basic binary of life and death, that allows for differences to be perceived and to exist in first place.

Always good to see it in bottom up way with a friendship past differences. It gives hope the top down adjusts more to that with time.

Given my top down vs bottom up argument presented above, I am sad that this PDF drama is predictably scripted to reach its logical result, simply because I tried and failed to implement that approach here: do what one can to implement at least the basic rules step by step. But the uproar at being told to not change titles or post copious amounts of agenda driven drivel upset too many people so used to getting there way that management simply caved in to their demands. All I have to show for my time and effort is the satisfaction of having tried my best and failed.

May be someday things will change. As I am often told here, there is always hope.

Satisfaction of trying your best but failed. Far better than not trying at all.

We all fail at living in the end, life just ceases. So yes you must try your best in the time you have as you see something to be worthy that is within you reach to work upon.

If success was always guaranteed and failure never existed....there is no trying and striving to begin with. Courage would not exist in that universe.

To me the trying and striving (and the impact others see from that, whatever the final result) is the whole meaning and purpose....the test.

Stoicism is great life recipe for me for this very reason. Just got to do your best whatever the odds of success....as doing good things cultivates good things in you at the very least.

Then sometimes you get extra benefits anyway. One time I was very pleased when someone brought an earlier work I did to my attention, that my failure was important to his later breakthrough. He didn't know it was my work at the time (he only looked one layer deep and there were intermediaries).....but it was a unique feeling and I didn't tell him as he was well on the way to looking at the base at some point and finding lil ole me and my failure then....and have a better laugh then too. This was a total dead-end to me at the time after considerable time spent....but the record mattered in the end to someone else.....a fresh pair of eyes, time and intent.
 
@hembo forgot to tag you here. You might enjoy last few pages of convo and tell us what you think. @Jbgt90tankguy as well when you are here next. From about page 11 onwards....earlier parts of thread too if it interests you.

I will be getting to more replies/discussion a bit later hopefully. Time has been limited on my end lately.
 
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@hembo forgot to tag you here. You might enjoy last few pages of convo and tell us what you think. @Jbgt90tankguy as well when you are here next. From about page 11 onwards....earlier parts of thread too if it interests you.

I will be getting to more replies/discussion a bit later hopefully. Time has been limited on my end lately.
Thanks for tagging me .
 
@Waz can we pin this thread? I hope to start to contribute to it again soon and it will make it easier to find when I get time for it.
 
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@Waz can we pin this thread? I hope to start to contribute to it again soon and it will make it easier to find when I get time for it.
Is it really needed? There is no actual doctrine in place, just adhoc diktats, and same old corruption at all levels.
 
Is it really needed? There is no actual doctrine in place, just adhoc diktats, and same old corruption at all levels.
Exactly, even by the jamedar standard Munira whisky is a low IQ duffer who can't even spell doctrine.

This is nothing but institutional policy/thinking. Jamedars are truly afraid that their 250 years of colonial service is at stake and they will burn the whole dang house down before surrendering to the will of the people.
 
Is it really needed? There is no actual doctrine in place, just adhoc diktats, and same old corruption at all levels.

Whether the topic name itself is genuine or ersatz, its become a repository for further analysis and discussion.

I'd like to hear your comments on anything you've read so far in here....as you are one of the better posters I've seen so far that I didn't know about before.
 
Whether the topic name itself is genuine or ersatz, its become a repository for further analysis and discussion.

I'd like to hear your comments on anything you've read so far in here....as you are one of the better posters I've seen so far that I didn't know about before.
True, unfortunately the downward spiral, and lack of common sense, gets overwhelming.
 


Meanwhile:


Objectively the investment rate is the largest strategic economic problem for Pakistan.
 
This is the doctrine right here - those who know - know
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This is why those that benefit from the status quo, culminating in the legacy politicians and political parties, as their representatives, can’t be the harbingers of a reorientation. They are too embedded in maintaining the edifice of the ancien regime, the aristocratic imagery of stability and order.

PTI was also a part of this calculus, but the actions of the last two years, have given them new life. As the Shakespeare saying goes; “Be not afraid of greatness, some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.”

Now is the time to create the space for the intellectuals to gather and take their rightful place as our leaders, or at least be amongst the advisors to our rightful democratically elected leaders (we have to be careful we don’t give power/rise to a Robespierre type of intellectual though) within the bounds of checks and balances.

It has always long been the time for that. It just becomes more pressing as time goes by.

The issue is Pakistan has its unique flawed arrangement of social contract. It needs complete revolution and reset somehow, arteries of power are entirely clogged and hardened....and every typical reactionary thing done to this changes little.

There is also the issue with the "Islamic republics" in general with the maximalism-statism I described to you in the book thread that leads to this inevitably. Identitarian narrative with use of religion has an extra factor on top with Islam in that every Muslim country has far more Muslims outside the country borders than within it.... i.e what can be short circuited into the state....at odds with the nation's needs and localised references.

This squelches any positive parts of the intelligentsia....as they are corralled and herded to one narrative set by the power circles that be, this is the state of the anti-intellectualism that happens in such domineering power grabs. Pakistan has its own unique distillation of it.
 
Ok just learnt a new English word today, as I have no idea what pareidolia is till googling it.

Also read upon Wiki about Kamaraj, as I have no idea on who is. Interesting story and seems to be a principled person, from what I read.

In my case I have no fascination with any party, am more like one who enjoys a movie fight happening in real instead on a screen. I have said this before too and, I have no trust in any political party. I am a nobody to them (as in a middle class person, they don't care if I vote or not vote till recently, as the poor and minority is whose vote matters more or less), and they are a nobody to me. No party will work for any community or group, unless it helps them politically.

Was the case more or less till that MF Chidambaram and Sonia (2014), decided to break my state into two. To top this off the blatant and brazen way corruption happened (2012-13), before the current lot came just added to my list. Is the current lot some answer, no they aren't. But then am a nobody to them, and they are to me. Still I will vote for them, just to feed my sadistic happiness of seeing INC down the garbage drain some day. I don't think I have to hide my hate (and its horrible to see this nasty bunch back in power, in this state again but it is what it is)

Now to the pareidolia

What do you mean by, playing by the book? Accepting the political verdict?
Including current dispensation you say, can you point out where INC gave power to BJP of all? If its accepting democratic principles, are we to put a garland around their neck for doing the right thing? If this is what you meant, they will become true mirror image of Pak Establishment and not the other side of the coin (had they not done what they did).

I don't mind if you say that, am seeing things where there aren't .. but below are my reasons

While Pak Establishment uses India to stay in power, INC uses the idea of a liberal nation/secularism along with past laurels to stay in power. Both parties use this reason to fatten themselves, at the cost of people. Both use dirty tricks against opponents, and basically taught how to play dirty (In case of Pak Establishment, the opponents can't pay them back due to obvious reasons of course). Both have operated for decades, with near impunity and managed to have no opposition due to these dirty tricks. Both know that they are being disliked, but don't want to change for betterment of their people.

Yes both issues are completely different, and the circumstances are different too (given the separate country and all). At the core however are two power centers, who have operated for long time and veered off their original course and at the cost of the people they are supposed to be working for. That I don't think is any pareidolia

India is very different situation and power dynamics and you are diametrically different to me in your reading of the INC role in it (as though it is the great institutional corrupter + power grab force right now).

Its not for no reason I brought up Nehru-Shastri-Kamaraj a number of times in this forum before. India needed those kind of things x100 to keep continuing.

What happened abruptly instead with the Indira Gandhi tenure was an abomination that has full costs impacted now with the contours and channels set for those merely willing or inducted to test waters and follow the same routes for power grabs and consolidations.

These have no close equivalents in Pakistan....along with what the post-Jinnah mess, objectives resolution and then Ayub Khan tenure set in precedent wise.

Pakistan is also a much smaller country, it has no large regions that are "resistant to Delhi" with commensurate economic forces backing them. So Pakistan's problem has permeated and baked in at a higher level.
 
Have the geinuses in GHQ thought about what they will do if India decides to go on the attack while China is busy with Taiwan?
 

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