U-214/S-80 vs Hangor

[kmc_chacko]

The Indian navy have done fine job with the surface fleet..carriers destroyers frigates
The air arms are good when you consider p8
Romeo
Predator drones soon
Rafale soon

But sub warfare has been neglected

priorities for developing underwater platforms gained moment after 2014, so it will be another 1-2 decades to achieve parity with surface fleet.

Are you saying we are negotiating for Shortfin Barracudas already with France? If true then I will anyday be happy to see we drop both S80 and U214 for this new French beast....
Have we signed 3 scorpean deal already or still pending?

IN is looking for long term prospective and also looking for 2 types/sources of SSKs.
First, MDL is looking for C-295 type deal with France for Scorpène/Barracudas type subs with AIP and L&T and Navantia looking to build much larger S-80 Class subs with AIPs

 

[harpy1]

Barracuda will not happen simple gold plated price..
The best conventional sub on planet though
The German subs are superb but we have to have guarantees of spares or complete tot...
S80 looks good modern European tech and cheaper
Good enough for next two decades against perceived threats
Both good options
We will know soon enough

 

[BP2]

For me I hope they go for the s80
At over 3000 tonnes it's very large sub do weapons load endurance should massive.
Six of these will.complement the smaller stealthier scorpene subs really well

S80 will operate further out beyond the aribian sea and upto Malacca straights where as scorpene will.be very much closer to our shores

S80 is a frankenstein sub.
They made a design error on drawing board, so had to add parts of hull when all the rest was unchanged. So now this sub is underpowered, not perfectly balanced between hull diameter and lenght (a bigger hull diameter would have been far better, for VLS for exemple).
And, more important, the combat system is a US one. So forget the liberty to adapt the weaponery you want.

 

[BP2]

I am actually surprised to learn the IN doesn’t have active any AIP submarine, something the Pakistanis had for decades.

true.
Indian Scorpene may habe been fitted with the same AIP system (than Pak Agosta), but it was found as "dangerous" and not efficient enough. So nothing.

 

[BP2]

S80 looks good modern European tech and cheaper

Are you serious?
They were not capable to study the sub, even after a ToT copy and paste of Scorpene ! And as said, fitted with a non european combat system.
The price ? No one knows the real price of these subs, because they hide the cost for fine tune it thanks to US well paid help.

 

[harpy1]

I suspect the Indians will assess from every angle so let's see.

TBF I would take any of the three barracuda U214 and S80

 

[BP2]

The cost of barracuda was extortionate

What Barracuda? The one sell to Australia or the one nearly sell to Netherlands?

In the Australian case, we have to built all from scratch in Australia ! It was a complete ToT program.
And now just compare the estimated cost of the 12 Australian made Barracuda, and the delivery date, with the cost and schedule of the 8 SSN with only 3 built in Aus....

My bet is that they will never have the money to purchase 8 SSN and this will end in a 4 to 5 second hand SSN deal with USA.

 

[Falcon26]

true.
Indian Scorpene may habe been fitted with the same AIP system (than Pak Agosta), but it was found as "dangerous" and not efficient enough. So nothing.

So a proven technology that was good enough for the French, the Spaniards and the Pakistan Navy wasn’t good enough for India? A technology that has had zero known issues? Talk about perfect being the enemy of good - the story of Indian weapons procurement.

 

[Oscar]

Doesn’t change the fact that India today has no active AIP-equipped submarine while Pakistan has had this technology for decades.

Based on pk side’s analysis it had to do with their usual procurement paralysis by analysis situations. They were hoping to get something local going and then overly ambitious ideals of nuclear subs for mainstays.

Reality has kicked in eventually and while plans were thought up for retrofits to scorpenes it seems now a case of interim this and interim that until their arguably promising nuclear powerplant comes online which they will let their local sub design go on it.

At the end, India has the right(if expected to be delay infested) goal of weaning off any imported platforms and weapon systems.

It sees the massive advantage China has today with being able to replace anything and everything as needed on attrition and create everything in house as it sees fit and no amount of open shopping access can replace that.

 

[suryakiran]

So a proven technology that was good enough for the French, the Spaniards and the Pakistan Navy wasn’t good enough for India? A technology that has had zero known issues? Talk about perfect being the enemy of good - the story of Indian weapons procurement.

The requirement from the start was to have an India AIP. Delays in development have resulted in the current situation.

Having said the above, ToT for the AIP has already happened to L&T for integrating the DRDO AIP to 2 Kalvari subs. L&T are also involved in the nuclear sub.

S80, Type 214 is all wish list. Expect 3 Kalvari+ class getting ordered in the 12 months. And post that more Kalvari ER with Lithium Ion batteries. This Type 214 and S80 is just time pass that is happening, if you were to ask me. Not to mention there is no guarantee that the non magnetic hull is the one on offer.

 

[Flotilla]

S80 is a frankenstein sub.
They made a design error on drawing board, so had to add parts of hull when all the rest was unchanged. So now this sub is underpowered, not perfectly balanced between hull diameter and lenght (a bigger hull diameter would have been far better, for VLS for exemple).
And, more important, the combat system is a US one. So forget the liberty to adapt the weaponery you want.

Yeah, we did;

We fit a US made combat system because Armada Española wasn´t satisfied with french one. And then integrated a self designed AIP that were much more advanced that offered by France (MESMA).

By the way Armada Española just integrated a german torpedo (Seahake) and now are integrating a sub-launched version of the NSM even before than US Navy. And spanish designed mines.

One of the problems of Scorpene was that France didn´t wanted to change their combat system, so we did it alone.

 

[Pingle]

The requirement from the start was to have an India AIP. Delays in development have resulted in the current situation.

Having said the above, ToT for the AIP has already happened to L&T for integrating the DRDO AIP to 2 Kalvari subs. L&T are also involved in the nuclear sub.

S80, Type 214 is all wish list. Expect 3 Kalvari+ class getting ordered in the 12 months. And post that more Kalvari ER with Lithium Ion batteries. This Type 214 and S80 is just time pass that is happening, if you were to ask me. Not to mention there is no guarantee that the non magnetic hull is the one on offer.

If U214 is not available with non magnetic hull then we should scrap this project..... S-80 too seems quite immature platform and Spain doesn't have any clout on international stage that can be helpful for India....

France and Germany surely have that clout.... but Germany can backstab any time even they poke their nose in our internal matters....

Best will be to have more scorpeans and if still there is a need go for ShortFin Barracudas.....

 

[harpy1]

I do feel ultimately

The order for six Aip equipped project 75i subs will probably end up in Indian red tape and just fall by the way side like 126mmrca fighter project

Just like the 36 Rafales

India will order three more scorpene subs with Aip in from.start.as govt to govt deal