USA: The Decaying Empire

[F-22Raptor]

LOL, yeah, I didn't want the thread diverting into complaint mode

But, on the topic, yes there are concerns, especially by conservatives, about America's trajectory. Only time will tell.

As for immigration, it is misleading since the overwhelming majority of immigrants to US and Canada come from developing countries so that's not saying much. Everybody wants to move up. When millions of Frenchmen and Germans and Swedes line up for US or Canada migration, then it might mean something.

Over 1.1M Europeans have legally immigrated to the US since 2010.

Over 750K Europeans have become naturalized US citizens since 2013.

Over 158K Europeans have tried to ILLEGALLY immigrate to the US since 2013.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-11/2023_0818_plcy_yearbook_immigration_statistics_fy2022.pdf

 

[Developereo]

The only people that I have personally heard really criticize the services they were being provided (beyond some level of reason)

Well that is why I specifically wrote 'legitimate introspection and critique'.

There will always be whingers but I was talking more about the quality of education, public infrastructure, immigration, house prices, foreign policy, etc. These are legitimate issues to be debated openly but public forums tend to be polluted by trolls and opportunists.

Over 1.1M Europeans have legally immigrated to the US since 2010.

Over 750K Europeans have become naturalized US citizens since 2013.

Over 158K Europeans have tried to ILLEGALLY immigrate to the US since 2013.

https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/2023-11/2023_0818_plcy_yearbook_immigration_statistics_fy2022.pdf

You are proving my point. These numbers are minuscule compared to other parts of the world. All of Europe combined contributed barely 100K migrants/year, and this includes eastern Europe and Russia which are quite backward economically.

 

[FuturePAF]

Well that is why I specifically wrote 'legitimate introspection and critique'.

There will always be whingers but I was talking more about the quality of education, public infrastructure, immigration, house prices, foreign policy, etc. These are legitimate issues to be debated openly but public forums tend to be polluted by trolls and opportunists.

Their kids got to the same schools as our kids, and we do our best to provide ESL (English as a Second Language) services; which I went through myself and came out speaking impeccable English, or at least I like to think I do.

Public infrastructure, housing, etc. is what it is for all of us. The basics for the most part.

Immigrants, that are allowed to stay, start where they can get in, and if done legally, can work their way up.

The people coming are just coming faster than we can accommodate. Some were sleeping on the streets last night, here in New York. The patience of New Yorkers is running out as is most Americans. This is why I think Trump will win.

I saw a group of West African migrants trying to figure out the Subway system for the first time yesterday. This group complains the least and tries their best to be understanding. The only issue is some speak French, but many different African languages, that slow down providing services.

 

[Sanwal]

Historically, three major factors contribute to any empire's fall, these factors are imperial overstretch/overreach, corruption and failure to reform itself. The US empire is no different than any other empire from the past. We are witnessing a gigantic shift in power and influence in our lifetime. We don't know how long it will take to complete the shift, perhaps in our lifetime, or maybe our children will witness the end result.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Immigrants, that are allowed to stay, start where they can get in, and if done legally, can work their way up.

US social mobility is a myth, especially in the case of immigrants:

Even among immigrants, who are so central to the myth of American opportunity, mobility is tightly constrained. A 2017 study tracking U.S. immigrants and their children over recent decades found that these kids do tend to rise up the social ranks, but mainly until they match the social status their parents once held in their former country. So what looks like upward mobility — child of immigrant parents climbs comfortably into the American middle class — is really what the authors describe as a "reproduction of their parents' pre-migration status."

Opinion | The American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination

Politicians promote the idea that hard work can carry you anywhere. But the American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[F-22Raptor]

Well that is why I specifically wrote 'legitimate introspection and critique'.

There will always be whingers but I was talking more about the quality of education, public infrastructure, immigration, house prices, foreign policy, etc. These are legitimate issues to be debated openly but public forums tend to be polluted by trolls and opportunists.



You are proving my point. These numbers are minuscule compared to other parts of the world. All of Europe combined contributed barely 100K migrants/year, and this includes eastern Europe and Russia which are quite backward economically.

Naturally, parts of the world that are more economically impoverished will have a higher share of immigrants. Thats the way it’s been ad infinitum.

100K European immigrants per year is this amount of people:

I’d never refer to that as minuscule.

And these were the Europeans only legally ABLE to immigrate. Legal immigration to the US is an expensive time consuming process.

 

[Developereo]

I’d never refer to that as minuscule.

And these were the Europeans only legally ABLE to immigrate. Legal immigration to the US is an expensive time consuming process.

The numbers are minuscule when you look at the yearly averages.

France 4000
Germany 6000
UK 10000

These numbers are nothing compared to other countries and people from Western Europe can certainly afford the legal fees.

 

[F-22Raptor]

US social mobility is a myth, especially in the case of immigrants:

Opinion | The American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination

Politicians promote the idea that hard work can carry you anywhere. But the American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination.

www.nbcnews.com

My wife is from Central Asia, former Soviet Union republic. She came to this country knowing little English, and working small jobs. She learned English, put herself through school, earns over $100K a year. She’s a naturalized US citizen and couldn’t be happier. She’s living her American dream and we just purchased a new home last year.

You really don’t know what the f**k you’re talking about.

 

[FuturePAF]

US social mobility is a myth, especially in the case of immigrants:

Opinion | The American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination

Politicians promote the idea that hard work can carry you anywhere. But the American dream is just that — a figment of our collective imagination.

www.nbcnews.com

It’s not a myth, but the rising cost of living has made it harder in the more desirable areas to live.

That’s the truth. If you come now to the US, you won’t get housing in New York easily, except if you have a good job and proof of funds to get you an apartment. Isn’t it the same in China? Or do building owners just trust you will pay each month without any way to show you have the means?

Honestly, many people will probably find tiny basement apartments for the first few years, paying $500-800 a month, because we don’t build enough housing in the areas previous immigrants came to when housing was cheaper and because these are also areas with jobs inside the language bubble, such as Miami for Spanish speakers or Minneapolis for Somali speakers.

 

[Developereo]

It’s not a myth, but the rising cost of living has made it harder in the more desirable areas to live.

That’s the truth. If you come now to the US, you won’t get housing in New York easily, except if you have a good job and proof of funds to get you an apartment. Isn’t it the same in China? Or do building owners just trust you will pay each month without any way to show you have the means?

Honestly, many people will probably find tiny basement apartments for the first few years, paying $500-800 a month, because we don’t build enough housing in the areas previous immigrants came to when housing was cheaper and because these are also areas with jobs inside the language bubble, such as Miami for Spanish speakers or Minneapolis for Somali speakers.

Similar problems in Australia.

House prices are so ridiculous that people are projecting a permanent divide in society: those who own houses will be able to pass them to their kids but other young buyers are permanently priced out of the market.

Infrastructure is already strained but politicians have increased immigration to record levels because small business wants more customers, big business wants cheap labor, and home owners want upward pressure on rents and house prices.

 

[VCheng]

Similar problems in Australia.

House prices are so ridiculous that people are projecting a permanent divide in society: those who own houses will be able to pass them to their kids but other young buyers are permanently priced out of the market.

Infrastructure is already strained but politicians have increased immigration to record levels because small business wants more customers, big business wants cheap labor, and home owners want upward pressure on rents and house prices.

Housing prices are subject to laws of supply and demand. Restrictions on new developments based on environmental factors and regulations as well as taxation regimens play a huge role in driving up prices. Improving supply and providing targeted breaks can solve such issues If so desired.

 

[Developereo]

Housing prices are subject to laws of supply and demand. Restrictions on new developments based on environmental factors and regulations as well as taxation regimens play a huge role in driving up prices. Improving supply and providing targeted breaks can solve such issues If so desired.

They also require huge investment in transport and other infrastructure.

Australia has plenty of land, obviously, and big incentives for new migrants to go to rural areas but most just want to stay in Sydney and Melbourne metro areas.

 

[F-22Raptor]

The numbers are minuscule when you look at the yearly averages.

France 4000
Germany 6000
UK 10000

These numbers are nothing compared to other countries and people from Western Europe can certainly afford the legal fees.

You're cherry picking at this point. That doesn’t change the fact that this amount of Europeans on average are legally immigrating to the US every year:

It’s no revelation that people who are economically stable won’t uproot their lives and families to move to the other side of the world.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

You really don’t know what the f**k you’re talking about.

Do you know the difference between anecdote and statistics?

American misbegotten optimism is addressed in the article:

What really makes America unique when it comes to economic mobility is our blind spot. In one study comparing the U.S. with Britain, France, Italy and Sweden, researchers found that mobility over the last three or so decades is actually lower in the U.S. than in the European countries, where the odds of climbing from the bottom 20 percent to the top 20 percent are more like 1-in-9. But that’s just half the story. They also found that Americans, and only Americans, overestimate the chances of moving up.

 

[VCheng]

They also require huge investment in transport and other infrastructure.

Australia has plenty of land, obviously, and big incentives for new migrants to go to rural areas but most just want to stay in Sydney and Melbourne metro areas.

Population density creates its own economic opportunities too despite the limitations that you mention.