USA: The Decaying Empire

[Joe Shearer]

I do remember some historian (Niall Ferguson?) compared North and South American culture and claimed that American success is due to the Protestant work ethic.

That sounds very fundamentally true. Also, the ruthlessness with which the Anglos did not fail to treat the native Americans.

Why I say this is because the Latinos also did that; ground the native Americans under an iron heel. So, no difference between them; the Anglos taking over the geographical phenomenon known as the prairies was possible only due to the cold-blooded and unrelenting war they raged on them, comparable, in modern times, only to the way the state of Israel is treating Palestinians. By itself, that would NOT have been enough. What helped the Anglos was the parallel drive towards excellence in everything they did, including building a phenomenal grip over precision machine tools, and building the railways.

Ultimately, then, given that both were given rich continents to exploit, it was the Protestant work ethic that took one set forward, and the lack of it kept the other set backward.

 

[VCheng]

That sounds very fundamentally true. Also, the ruthlessness with which the Anglos did not fail to treat the native Americans.

Why I say this is because the Latinos also did that; ground the native Americans under an iron heel. So, no difference between them; the Anglos taking over the geographical phenomenon known as the prairies was possible only due to the cold-blooded and unrelenting war they raged on them, comparable, in modern times, only to the way the state of Israel is treating Palestinians. By itself, that would NOT have been enough. What helped the Anglos was the parallel drive towards excellence in everything they did, including building a phenomenal grip over precision machine tools, and building the railways.

Ultimately, then, given that both were given rich continents to exploit, it was the Protestant work ethic that took one set forward, and the lack of it kept the other set backward.

To be fair, Sir, the ruthlessness was on both sides. Actually, all sides. The Native Americans were not exactly humane to each other in their incessant tribal raids throughout their history, either.

This original tree still exists not far from my home:

The Torture Tree - Cuylerville, NY - Exploring Upstate

The Torture Tree near Geneseo is a Historic Landmark that was once the site of a horrific battle.

exploringupstate.com

 

[KingQamaR]

That sounds very fundamentally true. Also, the ruthlessness with which the Anglos did not fail to treat the native Americans.

Why I say this is because the Latinos also did that; ground the native Americans under an iron heel. So, no difference between them; the Anglos taking over the geographical phenomenon known as the prairies was possible only due to the cold-blooded and unrelenting war they raged on them, comparable, in modern times, only to the way the state of Israel is treating Palestinians. By itself, that would NOT have been enough. What helped the Anglos was the parallel drive towards excellence in everything they did, including building a phenomenal grip over precision machine tools, and building the railways.

Ultimately, then, given that both were given rich continents to exploit, it was the Protestant work ethic that took one set forward, and the lack of it kept the other set backward.

Amazing explanation Mr Joe.

When explaining why North America is so wealthy, we all completely missed (or skipped over) the whole 300 years more or less of indentured servitude, SLAVERY, and extremely poor and unethical working conditions of factory workers during the industrial revolution. Besides that, good information from us all.

 

[VCheng]

the whole 300 years more or less of indentured servitude, SLAVERY, and extremely poor and unethical working conditions of factory workers during the industrial revolution.

What happened in North America as described above was exactly what happened in the UK where the industrial revolution started. That is just the way things were done all over, not just here or in the UK.

 

[Joe Shearer]

To be fair, Sir, the ruthlessness was on both sides. Actually, all sides. The Native Americans were not exactly humane to each other in their incessant tribal raids throughout their history, either.

This original tree still exists not far from my home:

The Torture Tree - Cuylerville, NY - Exploring Upstate

The Torture Tree near Geneseo is a Historic Landmark that was once the site of a horrific battle.

exploringupstate.com

I absolutely didn't intend to give the impression that the Anglos (or the Latinos) were slaughtering innocent Navajo peasantry. Native American standards of behaviour towards the enemy and towards captives was marked by a cruelty that was fully reciprocated, after an initial lag, by the colonisers.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Amazing explanation Mr Joe.

When explaining why North America is so wealthy, we all completely missed (or skipped over) the whole 300 years more or less of indentured servitude, SLAVERY, and extremely poor and unethical working conditions of factory workers during the industrial revolution. Besides that, good information from us all.

Yes, indeed.
Vast numbers of people were exploited worse than animals, and this created the surplus that enabled growth and progress.

 

[VCheng]

I absolutely didn't intend to give the impression that the Anglos (or the Latinos) were slaughtering innocent Navajo peasantry. Native American standards of behaviour towards the enemy and towards captives was marked by a cruelty that was fully reciprocated, after an initial lag, by the colonisers.

Or what the Spaniards did in South America, or the Mongols did in Baghdad and so on. Humans, sigh!

 

[VCheng]

Yes, indeed.
Vast numbers of people were exploited worse than animals, and this created the surplus that enabled growth and progress.

Not really. Much of the industrial production was in the free states to the North, while the South benefited for a period of time from labor intensive cash crops like tobacco and cotton, and that is about all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Or what the Spaniards did in South America, or the Mongols did in Baghdad and so on. Humans, sigh!

I'm not going to get specific, to avoid getting killed, but this goes on in some parts of the world even today.

 

[VCheng]

I'm not going to get specific, to avoid getting killed, but this goes on in some parts of the world even today.

Indeed. As I said, human, sigh!

Some things really have not changed in 10,000 years.

 

[truthseer]

It is always funny to see Pakistanis and even Indians claim US is a dying empire. It's been dying for 20+ years now, still as strong as ever, and the only power capable of fighting on 3-4 fronts at the same time. Currently funding Ukraine against Russia, Israel against the Hamas terrorists and still having a decent military force. People will keep dreaming for a few years.

All empires fall, but the American system, the American dream is staying strong for at least 50-60 years. The only real threat to it is coming climate change.

US has resources, it is geographically in a great location, and unlike Europe which has neither of the two, isn't flooded by illegal immigrants with no skills and a cultural clash.

 

[Developereo]

I always wondered too if, given enough time , Native Americans would develop into and what kind of this North Anerica country would be like today?

Time, by itself, is no guarantee of (technological) progress. Most of the rest of the world proves it, unfortunately. It is just as likely that they would have been fighting each other to this day.

That sounds very fundamentally true. Also, the ruthlessness with which the Anglos did not fail to treat the native Americans.

As others have pointed out, the natives themselves cut each other down to size, making the takeover easier for offshore invaders.

The other factor was disease: Europe being such a small, crowded place, the locals had developed immunity to a huge array of diseases. The Native Americans had their own diseases, but the European diseases won out over the American ones and decimated the Native Americans.

Why I say this is because the Latinos also did that; ground the native Americans under an iron heel. So, no difference between them; the Anglos taking over the geographical phenomenon known as the prairies was possible only due to the cold-blooded and unrelenting war they raged on them, comparable, in modern times, only to the way the state of Israel is treating Palestinians. By itself, that would NOT have been enough. What helped the Anglos was the parallel drive towards excellence in everything they did, including building a phenomenal grip over precision machine tools, and building the railways.

Ultimately, then, given that both were given rich continents to exploit, it was the Protestant work ethic that took one set forward, and the lack of it kept the other set backward.

I remember an interesting segment where the historian compared languages. I English, we commonly say "I dropped the glass" but in Spanish, they apparently say "The glass fell from me". The narrator pointed out how the Spanish version put the blame on the glass, avoiding taking responsibility for one's actions/failures. Extrapolated, it signals a tendency to look elsewhere for someone else to do things. This is an all too familiar trait in many parts of the world, including South Asia.

It is always funny to see Pakistanis and even Indians claim US is a dying empire. It's been dying for 20+ years now, still as strong as ever, and the only power capable of fighting on 3-4 fronts at the same time.

The reason the US is a hyperpower, and will remain so for decades is not just about the military. The US is the only country that rules the globe militarily, economically and culturally. No single other country can match those three dominations.

Russia has more nukes and China will catch up militarily in quality if not in quantity. However, neither China nor Russia currently holds economic sway to match America. Finally, Chinese and Russian cultural domination is nonexistent outside their circles and they haven't made any dent in American cultural dominance.

 

[dbc]

I'm not going to get specific, to avoid getting killed, but this goes on in some parts of the world even today.

We can't judge the actions of our forefathers since we haven't lived their reality,
Judging from the hand written notes and diaries I was fortunate to receive as part my inheritance I can't imaging the extent of cruelty that existed in those times.
Before the US came into existence this was a lawless land, run by the cabal with the most brutes in its service.
I often wonder if a new land mass were to suddenly appear in the middle of the ocean with indeginous intelligent life - how would the "civilized" world react today?

 

[F-22Raptor]

The history teaches us that every big power/ country has "shelf time" (old Persia, Babylon, Egypt...). Nowadays, UK is insignificant, EU is sinking & becoming poor... Everyone knows that the same thing will happen to USA... however, I did NOT expect it will happen so quickly.

There’s never been a continental sized hyperpower in history.

The US government projects US GDP to grow to $80T in 30 years with salary disbursement over $34T to the US working population, over 3X today.

The world has never seen a hyper power like this. The US will remain preeminent until the galaxy implodes.

 

[VCheng]

There’s never been a continental sized hyperpower in history.

The US government projects US GDP to grow to $80T in 30 years with salary disbursement over $34T to the US working population, over 3X today.

The world has never seen a hyper power like this. The US will remain preeminent until the galaxy implodes.

So let me estimate: If the Thousand Year Reich lasted about 7 years, then Till the Galaxy Implodes would be, what, around 15-20 decades?