Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[Vikramaditya1]

It means no such thing. There is no actual evidence that all these sites are necessarily of the same IVC. You have chosen to indulge in idle hindutva conjecture. There are ancient cities older than Harappa even in Pakistan, let alone in Hindustan (e.g. Mehrgahr), which may well be precursor civilisations of the IVC. You have hard genetic evidence of just ONE site (Rakhigiri) being genetically related to Pakistani Harappan civilisation, specifically postulated that migrants went from the Pakistani sites to Rakhigiri.

Thats the most illogical argument ever made. So what now Pakistan was geographically Isolated from India by an imaginary mountain. Parts to IVC exists in Pakistan. Where's the Hindutva conjecture? Throwing Hindutva word at everything is weak, find a logical argument against sites in Haryana being the oldest IVC sites.

Hard genetic evidence is only found in Indian sites. We do the radio carbon dating of our sites, maintain them. Acquire more land and do excevations. All you do is useless kanging on the internet, use genetic evidence from Rakhigarhi sites to claim you are XYZ etc... Even now it's hilarious to read the genetic evidence found in our sites are somehow migrants from Pakistan. Lol!

 

[Master Chief]

India associates more with its pre-Islamic past than Pakistan. Pakistan associates with the Islamic past more than India.

Keep telling yourself this.

 

[hussain0216]

Thats the most illogical argument ever made. So what now Pakistan was geographically Isolated from India by an imaginary mountain. Parts to IVC exists in Pakistan. Where's the Hindutva conjecture? Throwing Hindutva word at everything is weak, find a logical argument against sites in Haryana being the oldest IVC sites.

Hard genetic evidence is only found in Indian sites. We do the radio carbon dating of our sites, maintain them. Acquire more land and do excevations. All you do is useless kanging on the internet, use genetic evidence from Rakhigarhi sites to claim you are XYZ etc... Even now it's hilarious to read the genetic evidence found in our sites are somehow migrants from Pakistan. Lol!

Their is no evidence,, Indian history is more fantasy then fact

Indians desperate to try and co-opt Pakistani history and Indian historians are borderline fantasists

The vast majority of Pakistan was covered by IVC

India was just a afterthought on the fringes if what is India today

I will say again it is deeply revolting that thezw horrendous Kala gangadeshis from the east are trying to connect themselves to Pakistani history

 

[Master Chief]

Thats the most illogical argument ever made. So what now Pakistan was geographically Isolated from India by an imaginary mountain. Parts to IVC exists in Pakistan. Where's the Hindutva conjecture? Throwing Hindutva word at everything is weak, find a logical argument against sites in Haryana being the oldest IVC sites.

Hard genetic evidence is only found in Indian sites. We do the radio carbon dating of our sites, maintain them. Acquire more land and do excevations. All you do is useless kanging on the internet, use genetic evidence from Rakhigarhi sites to claim you are XYZ etc... Even now it's hilarious to read the genetic evidence found in our sites are somehow migrants from Pakistan. Lol!

When did I say or hypothesise some "separation" of all these sites at one given point in time? Do not play strawman with me.

I inferred very plainly that there is equal chance (probably MORE based on the eastward flow of DNA and the age of Mehrgahr) that Mehrgahr is this magical "precursor" to Harappa that you falsely seek in Haryana. We also know that Harappans travelled between different sites, whether for trade or for necessity because of irreversible decline of any one given site.

You have simply hypothesised that Haryana is the "oldest" site, when Mehrgahr is EVEN OLDER and is more widely accepted (I doubt you've heard of it in your little whatsapp bubbles!) as the precursor of the Harappan civilisation.

Yes, hindutva is the correct label to apply for your arguments, since I am certain you subscribe to typical non-scientific OOI narratives, for which hindutva notions of akhand bharat would be the only explanation.



Let me remind you, since you speak of DNA, that the DNA in your Haryana specimen was AT LEAST 50% Iranian.

Your problem is the bubble you have placed yourself into ignores simple genetic, archaeological, and geographical realities. So you come here and say words like "carbon dating" and "genetic" around without realising that you have shot yourself in the foot on BOTH accounts: 1. Rakhigiri is NOT (by carbon dating saar) the oldest precursor site to Harappa (that would be Mehrgahr). 2. The genetics of the Rakhigiri specimen indicates at least 50% Iranian derivation.

Please feel free to adjust these facts to suit your narrative with your own whatsapp campus, but such nonsense won't fly here.

 

[Distant_Observer]

Even the Greeks understood the borders between Ancient Pakistan and India

Ideologically and geographically and historically the concept of Pakistan has always been an entity.

 

[hussain0216]

When did I say or hypothesise some "separation" of all these sites at one given point in time? Do not play strawman with me.

I inferred very plainly that there is equal chance (probably MORE based on the eastward flow of DNA and the age of Mehrgahr) that Mehrgahr is this magical "precursor" to Harappa that you falsely seek in Haryana. We also know that Harappans travelled between different sites, whether for trade or for necessity because of irreversible decline of any one given site.

You have simply hypothesised that Haryana is the "oldest" site, when Mehrgahr is EVEN OLDER and is more widely accepted (I doubt you've heard of it in your little whatsapp bubbles!) as the precursor of the Harappan civilisation.

Yes, hindutva is the correct label to apply for your arguments, since I am certain you subscribe to typical non-scientific OOI narratives, for which hindutva notions of akhand bharat would be the only explanation.

View attachment 197238

Let me remind you, since you speak of DNA, that the DNA in your Haryana specimen was AT LEAST 50% Iranian.

Your problem is the bubble you have placed yourself into ignores simple genetic, archaeological, and geographical realities. So you come here and say words like "carbon dating" and "genetic" around without realising that you have shot yourself in the foot on BOTH accounts: 1. Rakhigiri is NOT (by carbon dating saar) the oldest precursor site to Harappa (that would be Mehrgahr). 2. The genetics of the Rakhigiri specimen indicates at least 50% Iranian derivation.

Please feel free to adjust these facts to suit your narrative with your own whatsapp campus, but such nonsense won't fly here.

What the Indians have is a narrative that they want to try and force history to fit into

So rather then the obvious, they make these massive leaps with their own historians spreading nonsense for a already fantasist population

This is where you get Tejo Mahala, and Qutub minar, Red fort, etc with some sort of hindutva history


Never trust any of them

 

[Master Chief]

Even the Greeks understood the borders between Ancient Pakistan and India

Ideologically and geographically and historically the concept of Pakistan has always been an entity.

View attachment 197237

"India" to the Greeks was actually Pakistan.

Yet our distant cousins on this very thread imagine that Alexander would skip over the mighty urbanised civilisations of the Indus and waste his time on the junglee elephant riders of Nanda!

 

[nahtanbob]

Pakistan recognizes its full history......

Theory and practice are different

 

[Master Chief]

Theory and practice are different

Also, facts and mythology are different.

 

[nahtanbob]

Keep telling yourself this.

It is not what I tell myself. it is what gets done

 

[Distant_Observer]

Theory and practice are different

 

[Vikramaditya1]

There is no actual evidence that all these sites are necessarily of the same IVC.

Huh? So what you mean by this?

When did I say or hypothesise some "separation" of all these sites at one given point in time? Do not play strawman with me.

I inferred very plainly that there is equal chance (probably MORE based on the eastward flow of DNA and the age of Mehrgahr) that Mehrgahr is this magical "precursor" to Harappa that you falsely seek in Haryana. We also know that Harappans travelled between different sites, whether for trade or for necessity because of irreversible decline of any one given site.

Free to do that, everyone got their own hypothesis these days. If you have any evidence of older sites that is radiocarbon dated, go ahead. History is an evolving science new excavations find new sites, some older, some younger. But the important point is, you have to do it instead of breaking down and defacing centuries old idols.

You have simply hypothesised that Haryana is the "oldest" site, when Mehrgahr is EVEN OLDER and is more widely accepted (I doubt you've heard of it in your little whatsapp bubbles!) as the precursor of the Harappan civilisation.

Nice word play. We are not talking about precursors here. Such Neolithic primitives existed even in Iran. That doesn't mean they are all IVC. Even if you consider Mehgarh the Radio carbon dating of Bhiranna sites is 7000BCE and higher it's not a hypothesis, which shows a contrast between Mehrgarh that's somewhere in Baluchistan at Bolan pass. There is a world of arid region in between these two.

Yes, hindutva is the correct label to apply for your arguments, since I am certain you subscribe to typical non-scientific OOI narratives, for which hindutva notions of akhand bharat would be the only explanation.

Lets not discuss the scientific nature of either of our narratives or ideologies. It'll take a wild turn and you wouldn't like it. Lets stick to the topic.

Let me remind you, since you speak of DNA, that the DNA in your Haryana specimen was AT LEAST 50% Iranian.

Yeah not the Iranians you think, aka Iranian farmers it was the old Hunter gatherer type (IHG). What was the other 50% though? AASI.

Your problem is the bubble you have placed yourself into ignores simple genetic, archaeological, and geographical realities. So you come here and say words like "carbon dating" and "genetic" around without realising that you have shot yourself in the foot on BOTH accounts: 1. Rakhigiri is NOT (by carbon dating saar) the oldest precursor site to Harappa (that would be Mehrgahr). 2. The genetics of the Rakhigiri specimen indicates at least 50% Iranian derivation.

Please feel free to adjust these facts to suit your narrative with your own whatsapp campus, but such nonsense won't fly here.

Concentrate on topic, instead of me. You're writing essays of nothingburger.
Rakhigarhi is the largest site, and Bhiranna is the oldest site.

Also they did Radiocarbon dating on Rakhigarhi as well, like who wouldn't?
The site in Rakhigarhi had the same brics found in other IVC sites with the standard 1:2:4 ratio. They had the iconographies, ornaments and jewellery with previous gems, citadels and t, they had seals indicting trade as well.

Now why are you pushing this 50% Iranian story like it's a gotcha moment. Lmao so what? I never denied it.

To conclude IVC was the result of two primitive hunter gatherers the IHG and AASI that happened thousands of years before IVC took shape.

 

[r3alist]

Theory and practice are different

You don't practice history you silly donut. It just exists.








Would it not be so ironic if it was tribes on the Pakistan side who formulated some of the most profound vedic and Buddhist teachings

 

[r3alist]

Majority of Pakistanis of today have the same ancestors/forefathers/lineage etc. as Indians today

That's like saying someone from Sweden has the same lineage as someone from Portugal, we are talking about a continental sized land so absolutely there will be stratification and many groups, these will just materialize due to distance, the land the climate etc

There is no such thing as an Indian lineage because every region has its own story to tell, look at present day India right now.

If you think uncodified, random and nebulous concept of religious consistency applies thousands of years back, you are making the argument for a religious based nation, people who did not even know that they would be considered Hindu you have just designated as Hindu, never mind that the actual first archaeological findings only happened a century ago, why don't you let that sink in?

foolish for Pakistanis to think they are anything but Hindu/Buddhist converts...

Has anyone objected to this, it's just that no one particularly cares day to day, this is an Indian oddity to raise someone's lineage from centuries back.

It's not normal, who goes around telling Italian Catholics they should be worshipping's Zeus, Norwegian protestants that they should be something from midsomer.

Only Indians I think uniquely care,

there are no two nations from a sociological POV

It's not even a given whether they can comfortably eat at the same table, maybe they can maybe they cannot, even within Indian corporate offices there are groupings for all sorts of dietary or religious or social reasons

current day India is literally a living example of so many diverse groups, who maintain their grouping by excluding others. so if you project backwards into history why would it not be even more tribal?

 

[r3alist]

@samsite84


Would it not stand to reason that peoplehood and lineage requires a shared historical experience in large part?

But look here at this empire encompassing central Asia Afghanistan and a chunk of Pakistan

Bactria | Map, History, & Facts | Britannica

Bactria, ancient country lying between the mountains of the Hindu Kush and the Amu Darya (ancient Oxus River) in what is now part of Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan. For much of its history it was a meeting place for overland trade between East and West and for the crosscurrents of...

www.britannica.com

The rest of India had nothing to do with this, consequently they will have no cultural or historical imprint on their lineage from this.

if we arbitrarily start with the IVC it looks like historical experience only diverges between what is roughly Pakistan versus mainland India.