Who Rules the Waves? U.S. and Chinese Fleets, by Tonnage

[ChineseTiger1986]

Every time someone says something completely different.

China's official statement has never confirmed the propulsion systems of Fujian.

CAST has the father of China's EMALS as its Vice President.

The statement of Fujian as conventional carrier was from some non-official commentators, and it doesn't count at all.

Fujian should be similar to the CVN-LX proposal of the USN; a hybrid supercarrier with nuclear/gas turbine propulsion.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The comparison is broader, but it certainly goes in this direction:

US Navy - Battle Force: 226 ships/subs (3.973.200 ton)

CVN: 11 (1.100.000 ton)
10 Nimitz - 105.000 ton(1.000.000 ton)
1 Gerald Ford - 100.000 ton

Cruiser: 15 (159.200 ton)
13 Ticonderoga - 9.800 ton (127.400 ton)
2 Zumwalt - 15.900 ton (31.800 ton)

Destroyer: 73 (672.400 ton)
21 Burke Flight I - 8.400 ton (176.400 ton)
7 Burke Flight II - 8.500 ton (59.500 ton)
45 Burke Flight IIA - 9.700 ton (436.500 ton)

LCS: 23 (82.200 ton)
8 Freedom - 3.900 ton (31.200 ton)
15 Independence - 3.400 ton (51.000 ton)

SSBN: 14 (261.800 ton)
14 Ohio - 18.700 ton (261.800 ton)

SSGN: 4 (74.800 ton)
4 Ohio - 18.700 ton (74.800 ton)

SSN: 49 (381.900 ton)
22 Virginia Block I-IV - 8.700 (191.400 ton)
24 Los Angeles - 6.800 ton (163.200 ton)
3 Seawolf - 9.100 ton (27.300 ton)

Amphibious: 37 (1.240.900 ton)
2 LCC Blue Ridge - 19.100 ton (38.200 ton)
4 ESB Lewis B. Puller - 90.000 ton (360.000 ton)
2 LHA America - 45.600 ton (91.200 ton)
7 LHD Wasp - 41.100 ton (287.700 ton)
12 LPD San Antonio - 25.300 ton (303.600 ton)
6 LSD Whidbey Island - 16.100 ton (96.600 ton)
4 LSD Harpers Ferry - 15.900 ton (63.600 ton)

PLAN - Battle Force: 253 ships/subs (1.498.600 ton)
CV/CVF/CVN: 2 (130.000 ton)
CV-16 Liaoning (60.000 ton)
CV-17 Shandong (70.000 ton)

Cruiser: 8 (104.000 ton)
Type 055(13.000 ton): 8 (104.000 ton)

Destroyer: 42 (291.200 ton)
Type 052D/DL(7.500 ton): 25 (187.500 ton)
Type 052C(7.000 ton): 6 (42.000 ton)
Type 051C(7.100 ton): 2 (14.200 ton)
Type 052B(7.000 ton): 2 (14.000 ton)
Type 051B(6.700 ton): 1 (6.700 ton)
Type 052(4.600 ton): 2 (9.200 ton)
Sovremenny(7.900 ton): 4 (31.600 ton)

Frigate: 50 (187.000 ton)
Type 054A(4.000 ton): 40 (160.000 ton)
Type 054(3.900 ton): 2 (7.800 ton)
Type 053H3(2.400 ton): 8 (19.200 ton)

Corvettes: 50 (75.000 ton)
Type 056A(1.500 ton): 50 (75.000 ton)

SSK: 41 (123.400 ton)
Type 039(2.200 ton): 13 (28.600 ton)
Type 039A(3.600 ton): 4 (14.400 ton)
Type 039B(3.600 ton): 14 (50.400 ton)
Kilo(3.000 ton): 10 (30.000 ton)

SSB: 1 (6.600 ton)
Type 032(6.600 ton): 1 (6.600 ton)

SSBN: 6 (66.000 ton)
Type 094(11.000 ton): 4 (44.000 ton)
Type 094A(11.000 ton): 2 (22.000 ton)

SSN: 6 (36.600 ton)
Type 093(6.100 ton): 2 (12.200 ton)
Type 093A(6.100 ton): 4 (24.400 ton)

Amphibious - 47 (464.800 ton)
Type 075(40.000 ton): 3 (120.000 ton)
Type 071(25.000 ton): 8 (200.000 ton)
Type 072A(4.800 ton): 15 (72.000 ton)
Type 072III(4.800 ton): 11 (52.800 ton)
Type 073A(2.000 ton): 10 (20.000 ton)

Comparisons:
US Navy - CVN: 11 (1.100.000 ton)
PLAN - CV/CVF/CVN: 2 (130.000 ton)
Difference of 9 Aircraft Carrier and 970,000 tons

US Navy - Cruiser: 15 (159.200 ton)
PLAN - Cruiser: 8 (104.000 ton)
Difference of 7 Cruiser and 55,200 tons

US Navy - Destroyer: 73 (672.400 ton)
PLAN - Destroyer: 42 (291.200 ton)
Difference of 31 Destroyer and 381,200 tons

US Navy - LCS: 23 (82.200 ton)
PLAN - Frigate: 50 (187.000 ton) + Corvettes: 50 (75.000 ton)
This is where one of the few areas where the PLAN has the advantage, small combatants. 77 ships and 179,800 tons

US Navy - SSBN: 14 (261.800 ton)
PLAN - SSBN: 6 (66.000 ton)
8 SSBNs and 195,800 tons

US Navy - SSN: 49 (381.900 ton)
PLAN - SSBN: 6 (66.000 ton)
43 SSNs and 315,900 tons

US Navy - SSGN: 4 (74.800 ton)
PLAN - SSB: 1 (6.600 ton) + SSK: 41 (123.400 ton)
Here the comparison is distorted, because both have no equivalents to each other. 38 subs and 55,200 tons in advantage for the PLAN.

US Navy - Amphibious: 37 (1.240.900 ton)
PLAN - Amphibious - 47 (464.800 ton)
Here the PLAN has a numerical advantage but a tonnage disadvantage. 10 ships in favor of the PLAN but a large advantage of 776,100 tons

The PLAN is inferior to the US Navy in:
Difference of 9 Aircraft Carrier and 970,000 tons
Difference of 7 Cruiser and 55,200 tons
Difference of 31 Destroyer and 381,200 tons
8 SSBNs and 195,800 tons
43 SSNs and 315,900 tons
10 ships in favor of the PLAN but a large advantage of 776,100 tons on amphibious ships to favor a US Navy

Where PLAN is superior to US Navy:
SSK: 41 (123.400 ton)
Frigate: 50 (187.000 ton) + Corvettes: 50 (75.000 ton)
The difference between cruisers is really small and this advantage will decrease as the 4 Type 055s enter service and the Ticonderoga retire.

But Destroyer's difference in both numbers and tonnage is still huge.

The Aircraft Carrier gap is also still huge, even considering the commissioning of the Fujian.

The PLAN is inferior to the US Navy in SSNs, but the difference will certainly decrease as the Type 093B and Type 095 enter service, but in quantity and tonnage it will still be lower than the PLAN for at least another decade.

The PLAN is still inferior to the US Navy in SSBNs and this will continue unless China obtains more Type 094As or begins to introduce the Type 096.

And in amphibious ship tonnage, the PLAN remains far behind. If the PLAN's intention to acquire 8 Type 075/Type 076 is truly true, this discrepancy will certainly decrease.

The biggest problem for the USN is the age of their sub fleet.

Onward 2030, their Ohio class and LA class would all be needed to be phased out.

Also China's nuclear sub fleet has been severally understated by Wikipedia.

In 2023, China has launched 4 Type 093B SSN, and it is going to launch more in this year.

The USN simply cannot deploy enough new ships to maintain the size of their current fleet.

 

[F-22Raptor]

The biggest problem for the USN is the age of their sub fleet.

Onward 2030, their Ohio class and LA class would all be needed to be phased out.

Also China's nuclear sub fleet has been severally understated by Wikipedia.

In 2023, China has launched 4 Type 093B SSN, and it is going to launch more in this year.

The USN simply cannot deploy enough new ships to maintain the size of their current fleet.

Thats just not true, and here is the USN battle force posture through 2040.

Currently the USN has 13 destroyers under construction and another 11 Burke’s on contract.

19 Virginias are under construction or contract and 3 are delivering this year.
2 Columbias are under construction

The Kennedy Ford class carrier will deliver next year. The Bougainville amphib assault ship will deliver next year.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

View attachment 49622

Thats just not true, and here is the USN battle force posture through 2040.

Currently the USN has 13 destroyers under construction and another 11 Burke’s on contract.

19 Virginias are under construction or contract and 3 are delivering this year.
2 Columbias are under construction

The Kennedy Ford class carrier will deliver next year. The Bougainville amphib assault ship will deliver next year.

In last year, China has launched 4 Type 093B, while the US has only launched 1 Virginia class.

In this year, China gonna keep pumping up more SSN and possibly new SSBN, while the 3000 tons mini SSN will also be available for mass production by 2025.

China's sub fleet has been nuclearized rapidly.

As for the destroyer, there is even no contest, the Type 055 & 052D have been produced like sausages.

Fujian has been under 2 major sea trials for less than 2 months, and it has been launched 30 months later than CVN-79 as a carrier with similar tonnage and capability.

No way that the CVN-79 will be combat ready by 2025, most likely by 2030 as the most optimistic approach.

By 2030, Fujian's sister ship will also be near deployment, and China will move toward the next-gen 120,000 tonnes class CVN afterwards.

The current shipbuilding capability of the US has no chance to beat China in a naval contest, even your ruling elites have openly admitted that.

 

[F-22Raptor]

In last year, China has launched 4 Type 093B, while the US has only launched 1 Virginia class.

In this year, China gonna keep pumping up more SSN and possibly new SSBN, while the 3000 tons mini SSN will also be available for mass production by 2025.

China's sub fleet has been nuclearized rapidly.

As for the destroyer, there is even no contest, the Type 055 & 052D have been produced like sausages.

Fujian has been under 2 major sea trials for less than 2 months, and it has been launched 30 months later than CVN-79 as a carrier with similar tonnage and capability.

No way that the CVN-79 will be combat ready by 2025, most likely by 2030 as the most optimistic approach.

By 2030, Fujian's sister ship will also be near deployment, and China will move toward the next-gen 120,000 tonnes class CVN afterward.

The current shipbuilding capability of the US has no chance to beat China in a naval contest, even your ruling elites have admitted that.

The PLAN could add 30 52Ds and double its 55 fleet TODAY and the USN would still have 3,000 more VLS cells than the PLAN.

The reality is the USN can project naval power anywhere on the planet. The PLAN can’t outside of the first island chain. Chinas naval aviation and undersea domain capability is a joke. The USN far outclasses you in both.

The USN continues to build the highest quality ships in the world with the most advanced capabilities. This is the reality.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The PLAN could add 30 52Ds and double its 55 fleet TODAY and the USN would still have 3,000 more VLS cells than the PLAN.

The reality is the USN can project naval power anywhere on the planet. The PLAN can’t outside of the first island chain. Chinas naval aviation and undersea domain capability is a joke. The USN far outclasses you in both.

The USN continues to build the highest quality ships in the world with the most advanced capabilities. This is the reality.

You gonna lose your LA class/Tico class/AB Flight 1 by 2030, and most Ohio class will also be gone.

No way you can keep your VLS number.

China will also have dozen of Type 076 fleet by next decade, and its drone capability will be overwhelmingly nightmare.

Speaking about the underwater capability, are you suggesting about your USS Connecticut?

USS Connecticut: 'Doomed' US Submarine Made Detectable Wakes Before Crashing In China’s Backyard, Study Claims

The USS Connecticut, a formidable Seawolf-class nuclear attack submarine, was on a classified mission; its cutting-edge technology was designed to evade even the most sophisticated radars. But on that fateful day in October 2021, the tables turned, and the hunter became the hunted. This...

www.eurasiantimes.com

It is both utterly embarrassment for your sailing capability and your shipbuilding capability.

It is still sitting duck with a losing bow after nearly 3 years.

 

[F-22Raptor]

You gonna lose your LA class/Tico class/AB Flight 1 by 2030, and most Ohio class will also be gone.

No way you can keep your VLS number.

China will also have dozen of Type 076 fleet by next decade, and its drone capability will be overwhelmingly nightmare.

Speaking about the underwater capability, are you suggesting about your USS Connecticut?

USS Connecticut: 'Doomed' US Submarine Made Detectable Wakes Before Crashing In China’s Backyard, Study Claims

The USS Connecticut, a formidable Seawolf-class nuclear attack submarine, was on a classified mission; its cutting-edge technology was designed to evade even the most sophisticated radars. But on that fateful day in October 2021, the tables turned, and the hunter became the hunted. This...

www.eurasiantimes.com

It is both utterly embarrassment for your sailing capability and your shipbuilding capability.

It is still sitting duck with a losing bow after nearly 3 years.

USN VLS will only see a dip in the late 20s, by 2040 it will be over 11,000 and by 2050 approaching 13,000.

 

[VCheng]

USN VLS will only see a dip in the late 20s, by 2040 it will be over 11,000 and by 2050 approaching 13,000.

Please stop woth the facts. Obviously, the next great naval wars will be won by adding up the tonnage built by each nation on the high seas, and the winner declared on that basis alone.

Or may be not.

 

[Lulldapull]

Please stop woth the facts. Obviously, the next great naval wars will be won by adding up the tonnage built by each nation on the high seas, and the winner declared on that basis alone.

Or may be not.

A dozen anti-ship hypersonics are enough for each of these vessels (no matter how hard you try to avoid them), provided yous got dat technology and industry no? and da oompph to lift up da game on your own no? This is a fools paradise, just like armor today facing a billion ATGM's.......Surface fleet won't survive 2 days, if da gloves really come off......

 

[F-22Raptor]

You gonna lose your LA class/Tico class/AB Flight 1 by 2030, and most Ohio class will also be gone.

No way you can keep your VLS number.

China will also have dozen of Type 076 fleet by next decade, and its drone capability will be overwhelmingly nightmare.

Speaking about the underwater capability, are you suggesting about your USS Connecticut?

USS Connecticut: 'Doomed' US Submarine Made Detectable Wakes Before Crashing In China’s Backyard, Study Claims

The USS Connecticut, a formidable Seawolf-class nuclear attack submarine, was on a classified mission; its cutting-edge technology was designed to evade even the most sophisticated radars. But on that fateful day in October 2021, the tables turned, and the hunter became the hunted. This...

www.eurasiantimes.com

It is both utterly embarrassment for your sailing capability and your shipbuilding capability.

It is still sitting duck with a losing bow after nearly 3 years.

Please stop woth the facts. Obviously, the next great naval wars will be won by adding up the tonnage built by each nation on the high seas, and the winner declared on that basis alone.

Or may be not.

Based on my research through 2029 the USN will retire all 13 Ticons, 11 LA class subs, 4 Ohio cruise missile subs, 5 Flight 1 Burke’s and 2 Ohio ballistic missile subs.

Through 2029 the USN will add 13 Burke destroyers and one Zumwalt destroyer. 10 Virginias, and likely the first Constellation frigate and first Columbia sub.

Through 2029 it’s a net less of 1,208 cells.

Through 2034 USN will add at least 9 more Virginias and these with the 40 VLS VPM payloads. At least another 12-14 Burke’s will be added and likely 9 Constellations.

So an additional 1,800-2,000 cells. I don’t have the retirement numbers for that period, but of course Congress could kick retirements down the road.

So by 2029, the USN will still have over 8,550+ cells.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Based on my research through 2029 the USN will retire all 13 Ticons, 11 LA class subs, 4 Ohio cruise missile subs, 5 Flight 1 Burke’s and 2 Ohio ballistic missile subs.

Through 2029 the USN will add 13 Burke destroyers and one Zumwalt destroyer. 10 Virginias, and likely the first Constellation frigate and first Columbia sub.

Through 2029 it’s a net less of 1,208 cells.

Through 2034 USN will add at least 9 more Virginias and these with the 40 VLS VPM payloads. At least another 12-14 Burke’s will be added and likely 9 Constellations.

So an additional 1,800-2,000 cells. I don’t have the retirement numbers for that period, but of course Congress could kick retirements down the road.

So by 2029, the USN will still have over 8,550+ cells.

By the year 2030, all current 24 LA class SSN should be retired; because even the newest boat gonna be 34 years old, and your previous LA class boats were all retired with that age.

You still wanna keep 13 LA class boats to extend its deployment because you cannot build enough Virginia SSN to fill the role.

The last boat of the Ohio class SSBN will also be 33 years old by 2030, and it should be decommissioned under normal circumstance, but your Columbia SSBN won't be ready until 2031 at the earliest time frame.

It is true that you are going to have an aging fleet with more than half of the ships/boats to be more 30 years old by 2030.

 

[F-22Raptor]

Based on my research through 2029 the USN will retire all 13 Ticons, 11 LA class subs, 4 Ohio cruise missile subs, 5 Flight 1 Burke’s and 2 Ohio ballistic missile subs.

Through 2029 the USN will add 13 Burke destroyers and one Zumwalt destroyer. 10 Virginias, and likely the first Constellation frigate and first Columbia sub.

Through 2029 it’s a net less of 1,208 cells.

Through 2034 USN will add at least 9 more Virginias and these with the 40 VLS VPM payloads. At least another 12-14 Burke’s will be added and likely 9 Constellations.

So an additional 1,800-2,000 cells. I don’t have the retirement numbers for that period, but of course Congress could kick retirements down the road.

So by 2029, the USN will still have over 8,550+ cells.

8,500 VLS cells looks to be the absolute bottom though as the USN will likely have a net gain of 2,000-2,500 cells through 2040.

And the loss of 1,200 cells is being offset by the massive increase in air to surface and land to surface based fires.

US cruise missile stockpiles will be nearing 15,000+, with 9,000 of that being JASSMs, the Army purchasing 4,000 PRSMs with Inc 2 anti ship capability coming online, NMESIS, Typhon etc.

 

[F-22Raptor]

By the year 2030, all current 24 LA class SSN should be retired; because even the newest boat gonna be 34 years old, and your previous LA class boats were all retired with that age.

You still wanna keep 13 LA class boats to extend its deployment because you cannot build enough Virginia SSN to fill the role.

The last boat of the Ohio class SSBN will also be 33 years old by 2030, and it should be decommissioned under normal circumstance, but your Columbia SSBN won't be ready until 2031 at the earliest time frame.

It is true that you are going to have an aging fleet with more than half of the ships/boats to be more 30 years old by 2030.

No, there’s only a net loss of 2 submarines by 2030 to 47. After that, the sub force will increase to 56 by 2040, then 62 by 2050.

The first Columbia sub is set for delivery in late 2027. The SSBN force will drop to 12 in 2030 and be maintained there. 12 Columbias will be built.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No, there’s only a net loss of 2 submarines by 2030 to 47. After that, the sub force will increase to 56 by 2040, then 62 by 2050.

The first Columbia sub is set for delivery in late 2027. The SSBN force will drop to 12 in 2030 and be maintained there. 12 Columbias will be built.

USS Cheyenne gonna be 34 years by 2030

USS Cheyenne (SSN-773) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

USS Louisiana gonna be 33 years by 2030

USS Louisiana (SSBN-743) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They are the most recent boat of their family, and cannot be decommissioned by 2030 because your navy is running out of SSBN and SSN.

China is planning to build more than 60 Type 052D and more than 30 Type 055, and it can easily hoard more than 10,000 VLS units for its surface combatants.

China is also launching 4 nuclear subs every year, and it can easily hoard more than 40 nuclear subs in the next decade.


China is winning because of its superior shipbuilding industry.

Chinese shipbuilding capacity over 200 times greater than US, Navy intelligence says

China's naval fleet, already larger than the U.S. Navy, is expected to continue producing ships at a faster rate, prompting warnings of dire consequences for U.S. security.

www.foxnews.com

 

[F-22Raptor]

USS Cheyenne gonna be 34 years by 2030

USS Cheyenne (SSN-773) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

USS Louisiana gonna be 33 years by 2030

USS Louisiana (SSBN-743) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They are the most recent boat of their family, and cannot be decommissioned by 2030 because your navy is running out of SSBN and SSN.

China is planning to build more than 60 Type 052D and more than 30 Type 055, and it can easily hoard more than 10,000 VLS units for its surface combatants.

China is also launching 4 nuclear subs every year, and it can easily hoard more than 40 nuclear subs in the next decade.


China is winning because of its superior shipbuilding industry.

Chinese shipbuilding capacity over 200 times greater than US, Navy intelligence says

China's naval fleet, already larger than the U.S. Navy, is expected to continue producing ships at a faster rate, prompting warnings of dire consequences for U.S. security.

www.foxnews.com

No, 12 Virginias will be delivered through 2030. These are brand new submarines and the most advanced in the world.

By 2040, USN VLS will be 10,500-11,000, and 2050 12,500-13,000.

All these ships and China still can’t project power beyond the first island chain. Meanwhile, the USN can project power anywhere on the planet at huge scale.