Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

[Lion]

AK was based off Type-90II with the different powerpack and some Pakistani specific mods but started life fairly similar to the Haider. Eventually more and more Pakistan specific/ built requirements incl electronics(autoloader/ electrical systems/battle management system) were added so it’s more Pakistani than it began.

So yes, you are correct where Haider is pretty much license assembly of VT-4 with the small modifications to radio and local IBMS(not confirmed although it would be weird not to) and ensuring compatibility with local ammo.

But, that doesn’t mean eventually for cost cutting and local industry/commission purposes components can be manufactured in Pakistan and the Haider in 5 years would be more Pakistani than it is today.

Local Radios, local IBMS, local gun barrels, local drivers night sight. The list is longer than it may seem, but still pretty short, you’re right otherwise though, this will change over the tanks lifetime considerably. I fully expect the Haider to be more localized eventually than the AK ever was.

 

[Lion]

but why didnt we produce enough alkhalid 2 tanks in the first place ? can you shed light on that please.

AK-1 Not 2, and the reason was money. Not enough money being given to production and R&D due to war on terror.

 

[Lion]

Considering what has been leaked recently about the Type 99 tank, the performance is exceptional. The speed of the Sabot round 100m/s faster than the M1 Abrams rounds and penetration of 960 mm of RHA at 1000 meters.



Speaking of importing foreign tech instead of reinventing the wheel, what do you think of an upgrade of some of the Al-Zarrar Tanks with the Turkish defense industry?

The following upgrade may look strange, but it seems interesting in how to upgrade a legacy tank and deal with modern threats.

Turkish M60A3 tanks get new modular turret

Turkish defence company Roketsan has delivered the first M60A3 upgraded with the new Modular Armored Tower to the Turkish Land Forces. The M60A3 is a main battle tank (MBT) that was developed by the…

www.defencetoday.com

Turkish industry is apply a lot of lessons learned from the Ukraine war on their tank fleet, why not benefit from that experience in a cost effective manner, with an upgrade package.

In war time, practically, Türkiye could supply ammo if the turret is swapped out with a Turkish 120 mm.

Let me just make it clear that no Chinese ammunition that is currently known or leaked even comes close to the penetration characteristics of American or German ammunition. Even the ZTZ-99A cannot accommodate longer penetrators than was possible with ZTZ96 as the auto loader has not seen many changes. This could change in the near future, but as it stands, this is true. Speed does not mean more penetration if your penetrator is shorter and doesn’t have better material. The ZTZ99A is not comparable to the Abrams or Leo2A7 in most things, it simply an older and less upgraded design. This isn’t because China can’t make it better, but because they don’t need to, nobody around them has any tanks that can come close to a ZTZ99As capability, their two main local enemies, Taiwan and India, don’t have modern tanks and both theatres aren’t tank friendly for China either, their money is better used elsewhere in their forces than tanks (they are still working on new tank tech though, we’ll likely see a new Chinese MBT soon, just like their new light tanks.)

Al-Zarrar does not need and will not get a really major upgrade again, but it is getting an upgrade nonetheless, which does involve a new turret and other changes.

Switching to 120MM NATO ammo is a terrible idea, it would ruin cross compatibility and create massive supply chain issues. Pakistan also uses pretty decent ammo on its tanks, better than anything India has by a generation.

 

[Harbyharb]

Another thing to keep in mind is that tanks, overwheliming majority of the time, shoot fortified positions, infantries, light vehicles, structures, instead of other tanks. And that's where 125mm ammo have a significant advantage, especially when Norinco supplies more versatile munitions than their Soviet-Russian counterparts.
Reference my earlier post on what such ammunition options are availble for VT-4/Al-Khalid

Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

Pakistan purchases 679 Chinese VT4 tanks that will be assembled locally According to the latest report of the SIPRI Arms Trade Database 2022, Pakistan signed a contract with China for the purchase of 679 VT4 MBTs (Main Battle Tanks) that will be assembled and produced under license in Pakistan...

defencepk.com

 

[farooqbhai]

Someone mentioned ERA?

 

[FuturePAF]

Let me just make it clear that no Chinese ammunition that is currently known or leaked even comes close to the penetration characteristics of American or German ammunition. Even the ZTZ-99A cannot accommodate longer penetrators than was possible with ZTZ96 as the auto loader has not seen many changes. This could change in the near future, but as it stands, this is true. Speed does not mean more penetration if your penetrator is shorter and doesn’t have better material. The ZTZ99A is not comparable to the Abrams or Leo2A7 in most things, it simply an older and less upgraded design. This isn’t because China can’t make it better, but because they don’t need to, nobody around them has any tanks that can come close to a ZTZ99As capability, their two main local enemies, Taiwan and India, don’t have modern tanks and both theatres aren’t tank friendly for China either, their money is better used elsewhere in their forces than tanks (they are still working on new tank tech though, we’ll likely see a new Chinese MBT soon, just like their new light tanks.)

Al-Zarrar does not need and will not get a really major upgrade again, but it is getting an upgrade nonetheless, which does involve a new turret and other changes.

Switching to 120MM NATO ammo is a terrible idea, it would ruin cross compatibility and create massive supply chain issues. Pakistan also uses pretty decent ammo on its tanks, better than anything India has by a generation.

The video quotes a report that makes these claims. In the world of OSINT, we never know for sure, but if the report is true, then the projectiles are said to be going faster. Believe it or not believe it. We won’t ever know until both the US manufacturer and the Chinese manufacturer release data.

As for upgrading the Al-Zarrar; it’s not just about upgrading the turret but creating a small tank force around Turkish style of armor warfare, which could allow the PA to take on Turkish ammo in times of war, and employ the tank in COIN just as Turkey has done against the YPG. Lessons learned from the design and operation of a Turkish upgraded Al-Zarrar such as the main gun, or how the tank fits into the Turkish way of C4ISR, could be applied to a future variant of the Al-Haider tank.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Al-Zarrar does not need and will not get a really major upgrade again, but it is getting an upgrade nonetheless, which does involve a new turret and other changes.

Add-on armour or brand new turret?

 

[Lion]

Add-on armour or brand new turret?

New turret, with comosites, improved hull armor as well, among other changes. Though we may not see many of them made.

 

[Lion]

The video quotes a report that makes these claims. In the world of OSINT, we never know for sure, but if the report is true, then the projectiles are said to be going faster. Believe it or not believe it. We won’t ever know until both the US manufacturer and the Chinese manufacturer release data.

As for upgrading the Al-Zarrar; it’s not just about upgrading the turret but creating a small tank force around Turkish style of armor warfare, which could allow the PA to take on Turkish ammo in times of war, and employ the tank in COIN just as Turkey has done against the YPG. Lessons learned from the design and operation of a Turkish upgraded Al-Zarrar such as the main gun, or how the tank fits into the Turkish way of C4ISR, could be applied to a future variant of the Al-Haider tank.

Faster doesn’t mean increased penetration. The Chinese ammunition is smaller than the American ammunition, the length of the penetrator matters a lot.

Yes we don’t know the exact numbers for either but going off what is known about older American and Chinese rounds (by older we mean the last two decades) and actual recent leaks, Chinese ammunition is not comparable to modern Russian and NATO ammunition. It can’t be with that length. This doesn’t need any numbers to back it up.


This “Turkish” style of armor has been suggested before on this forum too from buying Atlays to upgrading our own tanks with Turkish tech, it was and remains a bad idea and hence is not considered. We could upgrade older tanks with Turkish tech, but usually we can make it or buy it from China from cheaper and given our tanks are Chinese this is easier to integrate than buying Turkish stuff. There is nothing Turkey is making that’s so outstanding that we should be actively looking at that fits into our doctrines and technology economically. And going with Turkish ammo is absolutely not a good idea because again: supply chain issues. The ammo Pakistan uses for the Al-Zarrar is already vastly superior to Indian ammunition, and tanks aren’t really much use in Pakistanis Current COIN Ops.

 

[FuturePAF]

Faster doesn’t mean increased penetration. The Chinese ammunition is smaller than the American ammunition, the length of the penetrator matters a lot.

Yes we don’t know the exact numbers for either but going off what is known about older American and Chinese rounds (by older we mean the last two decades) and actual recent leaks, Chinese ammunition is not comparable to modern Russian and NATO ammunition. It can’t be with that length. This doesn’t need any numbers to back it up.


This “Turkish” style of armor has been suggested before on this forum too from buying Atlays to upgrading our own tanks with Turkish tech, it was and remains a bad idea and hence is not considered. We could upgrade older tanks with Turkish tech, but usually we can make it or buy it from China from cheaper and given our tanks are Chinese this is easier to integrate than buying Turkish stuff. There is nothing Turkey is making that’s so outstanding that we should be actively looking at that fits into our doctrines and technology economically. And going with Turkish ammo is absolutely not a good idea because again: supply chain issues. The ammo Pakistan uses for the Al-Zarrar is already vastly superior to Indian ammunition, and tanks aren’t really much use in Pakistanis Current COIN Ops.

Fair points and defiantly depends on a technical assessment to judge what is best.

Perhaps as Chinese tank ammo improves, the tech will be shared and Pakistan will produce better rounds, comparable to Russian and NATO rounds soon enough. For now, getting decent tanks in the inventory first is a good approach.

 

[Oscar]

Faster doesn’t mean increased penetration. The Chinese ammunition is smaller than the American ammunition, the length of the penetrator matters a lot.

Yes we don’t know the exact numbers for either but going off what is known about older American and Chinese rounds (by older we mean the last two decades) and actual recent leaks, Chinese ammunition is not comparable to modern Russian and NATO ammunition. It can’t be with that length. This doesn’t need any numbers to back it up.


This “Turkish” style of armor has been suggested before on this forum too from buying Atlays to upgrading our own tanks with Turkish tech, it was and remains a bad idea and hence is not considered. We could upgrade older tanks with Turkish tech, but usually we can make it or buy it from China from cheaper and given our tanks are Chinese this is easier to integrate than buying Turkish stuff. There is nothing Turkey is making that’s so outstanding that we should be actively looking at that fits into our doctrines and technology economically. And going with Turkish ammo is absolutely not a good idea because again: supply chain issues. The ammo Pakistan uses for the Al-Zarrar is already vastly superior to Indian ammunition, and tanks aren’t really much use in Pakistanis Current COIN Ops.

I feel there is absolute ignorance to how much of a money black hole the WoT was for Pakistani military. If the Earthquake limited to AJK culls 18 additional C/Ds and puts a mirage replacement on hold… imagine what constant deployment and kinetic ops does to PA upgrades while everyone here keep talking to no AK or Battle rifle or Z-10s and so on.

 

[Afif]

No tank in the subcontinent has the kind of sensor array VT4 does, AK1 is a rather distant second, though this is going to be improved with future AK upgrades to bring it closer to VT4. That is followed by base model AK and then T90S (which has really the same things as our T80UDs).

No, VT-5 has the same sensor array as VT-4.

 

[arslank01]

No, VT-5 has the same sensor array as VT-4.

where?

 

[Afif]

where?View attachment 26490

It uses the same sites as VT-4. Both are Covered here in photos.

As well as LWR.

 

[Lion]

No, VT-5 has the same sensor array as VT-4.

1. The VT5 isn’t an MBT.
2. Sights aren’t sensors. However I do believe VT5 has the same TIs as VT4.
3. Lacks the Auto-boresight system.
4. Lacks several other features from VT4 like the RWS (not sure why BD got those removed considering the tank normally has them).
it’s meant to be a light tank after all and not a full fledged MBT so none of this is really a complaint, it’s expected.

That being said, it does have a lot of common parts with the VT4 too being the latest generation of Chinese light tanks, I had forgotten these were already operational in the sub-continent.
After the VT4 they would be the most technologically advanced tanks in the region, however, again, they are light tanks, and would not fare well against MBTs. Their regular APFSDS ammo is somewhat better than the stuff India uses for its T90S, and the ATGMs are a decent way for them to fight MBTs.