Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Irfan Usmani 1977]

Ws-10c is not weak tho maybe the earlier version. Thurst is not that far off from ws-15

WS10C thrust level 33,000 to 34,000 lbs similar to the AL41F1 and US GE 132 on block 60 F16s of UAE, WS15 is intended to have a thrust level of 38,000-40, 000 lbs or more in class similar to F35 engine (F135)

 

[YourDaddy]

That's not too bad tbh . At least we know ws-15 is in service now

 

[YourDaddy]

WS10C thrust level 33,000 to 34,000 lbs similar to the AL41F1 and US GE 132 on block 60 F16s of UAE, WS15 is intended to have a thrust level of 38,000-40, 000 lbs or more in class similar to F35 engine (F135)

Isn't al41f1 the best Russian engine available?

 

[Irfan Usmani 1977]

That's not too bad tbh . At least we know ws-15 is in service now

In small batch production right now

 

[Hendarto]

WS10C thrust level 33,000 to 34,000 lbs similar to the AL41F1 and US GE 132 on block 60 F16s of UAE, WS15 is intended to have a thrust level of 38,000-40, 000 lbs or more in class similar to F35 engine (F135)

There is more than just engine power. the aerodynamics of J20 is much more efficient with the combination of Lerx, lifting body, and small delta wing and canard. excellent maneuverability. F22 uses a conventional wing with thrust vectoring where you bleed the energy roughly 10%. It uses a tetrahedral wing like j31. which was rejected by PLA. So there you go

 

[Hendarto]

In small batch production right now

What small batches they delivered 100 copies last year! There are now 15 brigades with J20

 

[Irfan Usmani 1977]

Isn't al41f1 the best Russian engine available?

No there are developing and testing new AL-51 for the Su-57 and Su-75 with a thrust class of 37,000-39,000 lbs, they already tested on Su-57 with square nozzles similar to F22 nozzles

 

[Hendarto]

Isn't al41f1 the best Russian engine available?

Yes, but it is not a new engine It is just an improved AL31F engine. They have been working on Al51 but so far just a prototype

 

[YourDaddy]

No there are developing and testing new AL-51 for the Su-57 and Su-75 with a thrust class of 37,000-39,000 lbs, they already tested on Su-57 with square nozzles similar to F22 nozzles

That just shows how far china has come. From using Russian engine to having the same equivalent and now more engine than the Russian. The production rate for su-57 is like 10-15. 120 for j-20. I'm sure China can fulfill it next year or 2026.

 

[YourDaddy]

Yes, but it is not a new engine It is just an improved AL31F engine. They have been working on Al51 but so far just a prototype

Well then china is actually ahead. See that's not end all be all. If china can already produce ws-15 then a more powerful variant should be out sooner then. Don't think that's hard for china to achieve at this point.

 

[Irfan Usmani 1977]

There is more than just engine power. the aerodynamics of J20 is much more efficient with the combination of Lerx, lifting body, and small delta wing and canard. excellent maneuverability. F22 uses a conventional wing with thrust vectoring where you bleed the energy roughly 10%. It uses a tetrahedral wing like j31. which was rejected by PLA. So there you go

Canards and ventral fins are increase the surface area to radars and as for your information J31 is never been a competitor to J20, SAC presented tri-plane design to compete with J20, similar to the your Su-30MKK/MKK2 but with stealth features

 

[Michael]

@Irfan Usmani 1977 @YourDaddy
For more information about the engine, please click here. This is the information that is known so far.

Post in thread 'Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions'

Aug 13, 2024

A note on the J20's use of multiple engines:

1. When the J20 project was established, the engine performance parameters were benchmarked against the F119 engine of F22. In order to speed up the development progress, the development of the airframe and the engine was carried out simultaneously. Therefore, the AL-31FN engine was used in the early stage to complete the development of the entire airframe.

2. While developing WS15, the upgrading and improvement of WS10 has also been carried out. When WS15 reached the expected target and passed the test, the performance of the latest improved...

• Michael

• 

In the previous discussions, you already have some consensus on the topic you discussed. Unless you have new evidence to disprove it, don't keep arguing here that won't lead to results.

 

[Hendarto]

Canards and ventral fins are increase the surface area to radars and as for your information J31 is never been a competitor to J20, SAC presented tri-plane design to compete with J20, similar to the your Su-30MKK/MKK2 but with stealth features

That is BS canard was proposed for 6th G US plane, Rafale, Typhoon use canard. How can su-mkk be stealthy use your logic!

 

[Irfan Usmani 1977]

A note on the J20's use of multiple engines:

1. When the J20 project was established, the engine performance parameters were benchmarked against the F119 engine of F22. In order to speed up the development progress, the development of the airframe and the engine was carried out simultaneously. Therefore, the AL-31FN engine was used in the early stage to complete the development of the entire airframe.

2. While developing WS15, the upgrading and improvement of WS10 has also been carried out. When WS15 reached the expected target and passed the test, the performance of the latest improved version of WS10C, WS10, reached the level of F119, which is the preset target for WS15.

3. After the first version of WS15 and WS10C passed the J20 computer test. PLAAF final decision: the current version of J20 uses WS10C; WS15 continued to be developed, the target parameters were changed to the benchmark F135, and the equipment was given to the subsequent new version of the J20.

-----------------------------------------------

I know that PDF has many friends who do not believe that WS10C reaches the level of F119. PLAAF will not officially announce the performance specifications of the WS10C.

However, PAF's J10C uses the WS10B engine, and they have announced the performance specifications of the J10C and WS10B. Friends can compare this parameter with the parameter of F119. Think about WS10C again.

What's your source brother

 

[Hendarto]

Well then china is actually ahead. See that's not end all be all. If china can already produce ws-15 then a more powerful variant should be out sooner then. Don't think that's hard for china to achieve at this point.

Here the synopsis of Al41F1
The AL-41 engine, developed by NPO Saturn, has an interesting history and evolution:

Initial Development​

• Origins: The AL-41F, with the development designation “izdeliye 20,” was initially designed in the early 1980s to power the Soviet Union’s MFI (Multifunctional Frontline Fighter) program, which aimed to create a fifth-generation fighter1.
• Prototype: The first prototype engine flew in a MiG-25 Foxbat testbed. It was an 18-tonne class engine with a variable bypass architecture, designed to enable supercruise (sustained supersonic flight without afterburners)1.

Challenges and Delays​

• Post-Soviet Era: After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the MFI program and the AL-41F engine faced severe funding disruptions and delays1.
• Limited Production: Only 28 AL-41F engines were built, and the engine did not advance beyond the prototype stage when the MFI program was halted in 1997 due to high costs1.

Revised Development​

• PAK FA Program: With the abandonment of the MFI, the Russian Defense Ministry initiated the more affordable PAK FA fifth-generation fighter program. The AL-41F was too large for the new aircraft designs, leading to the development of new variants1.
• AL-41F1 and AL-41F1S: These designations were assigned to heavily upgraded variants of the AL-31F engine, rather than direct derivatives of the original AL-41F. The AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117) powers the Sukhoi Su-57, while the AL-41F1S (izdeliye 117S) is used in the Sukhoi Su-35S1.

Technological Advancements​

• Thrust Vectoring: The AL-41F incorporated thrust vectoring to enhance maneuverability, a feature carried over to its successors1.
• Increased Performance: The newer variants aimed to increase turbine inlet temperatures and overall performance compared to their predecessors1.

The AL-41’s development journey reflects the broader challenges and innovations in Russian military aviation, adapting to changing economic and technological landscapes.