Chinese scientists plan surface-to-air missile with 2,000km kill range

[Hendarto]

So you will track planes using satellites? LOL!

Lets say somehow you do that in the day, what will you do at night? SAR wont work because of stealth and the fact that satellite has to move quite a bit to get enough synthetic aperture.

Okay since you do not know how shooting down air borne moving targets work. Here is a basic flow.

You detect a hostile using your scanning radars.
You track them using your scanning / firing solution radar. Tracking calculates its position, velocity (speed and direction).
You fire the missile with location you last found.
While missile is flying, you keep on tracking the target.
You update the new location of the target to missile using data link.
Eventually missile arrives near enough the target that it can use its own onboard radar to track the target and chase it. You do not need to provide any further updates.

Now, how will anyone track from 2000 KM away?

REad this before dismissing it

Somebody’s Watching Me: China’s New Satellite Eyes U.S. Pacific Forces

Last fall, Army Gen. James Rainey warned that, “The ability to hide, which is fundamental to how we fight, is now impossible.” That was before China launched Yaogan-41.

www.forbes.com

Last fall, Army Gen. James Rainey warned that, “The ability to hide, which is fundamental to how we fight, is now impossible.” That was before China launched Yaogan-41.

China’s newest remote-sensing satellite ascended into geostationary orbit (GEO) on December 15, 2023. Yaogan-41, as it is called, can likely see, identify and track car-sized objects throughout the entire Indo-Pacific region. It’s an unprecedented capability that calls to mind the early 1980s pop-hit “Somebody’s Watching Me”.


It’s not clear whether Gen. Rainey, chief of the Army’s Futures Command, was aware of the impending launch of Yaogan-41 when he made the comment above but his assertion that Army (and other American) forces will be under constant surveillance in the future fits the current reality for military operations in the Indo-Pacific.

Clayton Swope, deputy director of the aerospace security project at the Washington DC-based Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), has described Yaogan-41’s capabilities in a new essay entitled, “No Place to Hide”.

As Swope notes, China maintains that Yaogan-41 is a civilian high-altitude optical satellite intended for agricultural data gathering, weather forecasting, and disaster prevention.

But the country has routinely made such claims about remote-sensing satellites that are clearly intended for national security/military purposes.
Three of these (Gaofen-4, Gaofen-13, and Gaofen-13-02) are optical satellites that also view the Indo-Pacific from geosynchronous orbit. Their surveillance capabilities are believed to include optical resolution from 50 meters down to 15 meters. Yaogan-41 is believed to have resolution down to around 2.5 meters.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Well ever heard of over-the-horizon radar? With new algorithms, AI, and Supercomputer processing, The fidelity of OH radar improves considerably. Then you can add satellite or high-altitude HALE to confirm it

Over the horizon radars (OTH) are not good enough for tracking the targets. Actually, their detection capabilities are also limited to large maritime targets. This is because the wave length of radar waves used should be low enough that it is reflected by ionosphere. Even if they detect aircraft, they can not track them at low enough distance because of limitations mentioned above.

So no, you can not "add alrgorithms, supercomputer, AI (LOL!)" and suddenly make OTH a fire control radar. No amount of "alrgorithms, supercomputer, AI" can beat physics.

 

[DevendraRajput]

China’s newest remote-sensing satellite ascended into geostationary orbit (GEO) on December 15, 2023. Yaogan-41, as it is called, can likely see, identify and track car-sized objects throughout the entire Indo-Pacific region. It’s an unprecedented capability that calls to mind the early 1980s pop-hit “Somebody’s Watching Me”.

There is a difference in detecting and tracking a car and an airplane. And you have not even thought about the biggest issue. What will you do at night?

 

[Hendarto]

There is a difference in detecting and tracking a car and an airplane. And you have not even thought about the biggest issue. What will you do at night?

Ever heard of SAR Read this before commenting

No Place to Hide: A Look into China’s Geosynchronous Surveillance Capabilities

In December 2023, China launched a new optical surveillance satellite, called Yaogan-41, that may allow it to keep watch around the clock on the entire Indo-Pacific region from geostationary orbit.

www.csis.org

Paired with its existing GEO optical surveillance capabilities, Yaogan-41's increased resolution means that China will be able to more easily identify and track U.S. and allied naval forces in the Indian and Pacific Oceans than it ever could before.

This increased resolution may give China the ability to identify and track even smaller objects, not just ships, but airborne assets like fighter aircraft and bombers as well. While stealth technology can help aircraft evade detection by radar, it is less effective against optical sensors, as demonstrated when a Google Maps user spotted a B-2 stealth bomber flying over Missouri. Pairing data from Yaogan-41 and China’s legacy GEO surveillance satellites with trained artificial intelligence (AI) algorithms would likely automate and speed up identifying objects of interest. For

Here is SAR satellite
In addition to these optical surveillance satellites, China operates one synthetic-aperture radar (SAR) satellite in GEO, called Ludi Tance-4 (Land Exploration-4 in English). Launched in August 2023, it is the world’s first and, currently, only GEO satellite with a SAR payload. The resolution of Ludi Tance-4 is 20 meters. The advantage of SAR is that it can see through clouds and at night. Like the three Gaofen satellites and Yaogan-41, China claims that the Ludi Tance-4’s mission is purely civilian and aimed at providing information about land resources, disaster prevention and response, and forestry applications.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Ever heard of SAR Read this before commenting

No Place to Hide: A Look into China’s Geosynchronous Surveillance Capabilities

In December 2023, China launched a new optical surveillance satellite, called Yaogan-41, that may allow it to keep watch around the clock on the entire Indo-Pacific region from geostationary orbit.

www.csis.org

Lets say somehow you do that in the day, what will you do at night? SAR wont work because of stealth and the fact that satellite has to move quite a bit to get enough synthetic aperture.

You need to read more carefully

Also, if you know how SAR works you wont mention it.

Paired with its existing GEO optical surveillance capabilities, Yaogan-41's increased resolution means that China will be able to more easily identify and track U.S. and allied naval forces in the Indian and Pacific Oceans than it ever could before.

Keyword is "Optical". I hope you know what it means.

Clouds, night, weather are all agains you if you depend upon visible spectrum. Anyone who has spent anytime going through satellite images (or ever google earth) will know, how often the images are useless due to cloud cover.

 

[Hendarto]

You need to read more carefully

Also, if you know how SAR works you wont mention it.


Keyword is "Optical". I hope you know what it means.

Clouds, night, weather are all agains you if you depend upon visible spectrum. Anyone who has spent anytime going through satellite images (or ever google earth) will know, how often the images are useless due to cloud cover.

I guess you didn't read my post China has GEO SAR satellite too that can detect 20 m object and here is AWAC Dimension
What stealth AWAC is a whale you can spot it by miles!
The Boeing E-3 Sentry has the following dimensions:

• Wingspan: 145 ft 9 in (44.42 m)
• Length: 152 ft 11 in (46.61 m)
• Height: 41 ft 4 in (12.60 m)
• Wing area: 3,050 sq ft (283 m2)

 

[DevendraRajput]

I guess you didn't read my post China has GEO SAR satellite too that can detect 20 m object and here is AWAC Dimension

Once more, detection is not the issue. Tracking is. How many updates on velocity or position can SAR satellites get? Do you know how SAR works? It enhances the resolution by motion of satellite itself. This means there is a limit to how quickly you can update the position and velocity of the target. And that means they are not usable for tracking. SAR is best utilized for visualising ground and ocean targets.

And given that power of emitter in the satellite is limited, ANY application of RAM coating will render the plane invisible to SAR satellites because SAR satellites are FAR and do not have high powered emitter as ground based satellites have.

 

[Hendarto]

Over the horizon radars (OTH) are not good enough for tracking the targets. Actually, their detection capabilities are also limited to large maritime targets. This is because the wave length of radar waves used should be low enough that it is reflected by ionosphere. Even if they detect aircraft, they can not track them at low enough distance because of limitations mentioned above.

So no, you can not "add alrgorithms, supercomputer, AI (LOL!)" and suddenly make OTH a fire control radar. No amount of "alrgorithms, supercomputer, AI" can beat physics.

Raytheon is working exactly as I said read this

Next Generation Over-the-Horizon Radar

www.rtx.com

 

[Hendarto]

Once more, detection is not the issue. Tracking is. How many updates on velocity or position can SAR satellites get? Do you know how SAR works? It enhances the resolution by motion of satellite itself. This means there is a limit to how quickly you can update the position and velocity of the target. And that means they are not usable for tracking. SAR is best utilized for visualising ground and ocean targets.

And given that power of emitter in the satellite is limited, ANY application of RAM coating will render the plane invisible to SAR satellites because SAR satellites are FAR and do not have high powered emitter as ground based satellites have.

Here what Chat gt said about SAR detecting ships
Certainly! Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) satellites are indeed capable of detecting the movement of ships. Let’s explore how this works:

1. SAR Satellite Imagery:
   • SAR satellites capture images using radar waves rather than visible light. Unlike optical satellites that rely on clear skies, SAR can operate effectively regardless of atmospheric conditions, including cloud cover and darkness1.
   • This ability to “see through” clouds and work at night makes SAR data highly attractive for various applications.
2. Ship Detection with SAR:
   • SpaceKnow, in collaboration with the European Space Agency (ESA), is developing an advanced solution called Project SEA-SPARK. Its goal is to automatically detect ships using high-resolution SAR satellite imagery.
   • Why ships? Since most of our planet’s surface is covered by water, monitoring vast maritime areas using traditional methods (such as earth-based sensors or human analysis) is costly and challenging.
   • SAR helps detect ships even in areas where Automatic Identification System (AIS) data (which relies on broadcast systems aboard ships) may not be available or reliable2.
   • Notably, SAR can identify ships that do not cooperate with AIS, including those engaged in illegal activities (often referred to as “Dark Ships”). These vessels are hard to detect by conventional means1.
3. Challenges and Solutions:
   • The problem of ship detection on SAR data has been a significant challenge. Unlike optical imagery, SAR data requires specialized algorithms for accurate ship identification.
   • Project SEA-SPARK leverages high-resolution SAR data, allowing for better performance and the detection of smaller boats1.
   • By analyzing scattering intensity and coherence estimation from SAR images, SpaceKnow’s solution monitors ship movements effectively3.

In summary, SAR satellites play a crucial role in maritime surveillance, providing valuable insights into ship activity, even in adverse weather conditions and during nighttime hours.

 

[DevendraRajput]

Raytheon is working exactly as I said read this

Next Generation Over-the-Horizon Radar

www.rtx.com

No where it says that Raytheon is working on a OTH that will act as a fire control radar. That does not work.

 

[Hendarto]

SAR can detect plane movement Here it is
Certainly! Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) is a powerful technology that can indeed detect the movement of planes. Let’s explore how SAR works and its capabilities:

1. How Does Synthetic Aperture Radar Work?
   • SAR creates images using radio waves rather than visible light (as in optical images).
   • Unlike optical cameras, SAR actively illuminates the ground by transmitting pulses of radiofrequency (RF) energy.
   • Key advantages of SAR:
     • All-weather capability: SAR can capture images day or night, even through clouds and smoke.
     • 24-hour availability: It operates continuously, making it ideal for surveillance.
   • SAR systems transmit radio waves with wavelengths ranging from 3 cm to a few meters, falling within the microwave part of the spectrum.
   • The radar antenna receives the return signal (echo) and measures the time it takes to travel back. This process provides information about the target’s distance (ranging) and properties (detection).
2. Detecting Moving Objects with SAR:
   • SAR can detect and track moving objects on land, sea, and air.
   • For planes:
     • As an active system, SAR sends out pulses of RF energy and receives echoes from the moving aircraft.
     • By analyzing changes in the return signal over time, SAR can identify the plane’s position, speed, and direction of movement.
     • SAR’s ability to operate day or night and penetrate cloud cover makes it valuable for aviation surveillance1.
3. Applications:
   • Defence and security: SAR helps monitor troop movements, track vehicles, and detect ships and aircraft.
   • Environmental monitoring: SAR can identify changes in forests, ice, and land cover.
   • Disaster response: It aids in assessing damage after natural disasters.
   • Agriculture: SAR assists in crop monitoring and soil moisture estimation.

In summary, SAR satellites are indeed capable of detecting the movement of planes, providing critical information for various applications.

Learn more​

1defensebridge.com2capellaspace.com3ursaspace.com4mdpi.com5capellaspace.com6earthdata.nasa.gov+4 mor

 

[DevendraRajput]

In summary, SAR satellites play a crucial role in maritime surveillance, providing valuable insights into ship activity, even in adverse weather conditions and during nighttime hours.

Ask ChatGPT if SAR satellites can be used as a replacement of fire control radar in shooting down an air plane.

 

[Hendarto]

No where it says that Raytheon is working on a OTH that will act as a fire control radar. That does not work.

It said they working on OVH radar with IMPROVED FIDELITY Capici!

 

[DevendraRajput]

It said they working on OVH radar with IMPROVED FIDELITY Capici!

FIDELITY is not same as tracking. Tracking means high resolution and very low latency in spatial and temporal domain. So no.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Well ever heard of over-the-horizon radar? With new algorithms, AI, and Supercomputer processing, The fidelity of OH radar improves considerably. Then you can add satellite or high-altitude HALE to confirm it

High Frequency (HF) Over the Horizon Radar (OTHR) Metric Accuracy | SBIR.gov

www.sbir.gov

Over-the-Horizon radar (OTHR) uses ionospheric reflection to propagate HF transmissions to long range (~ 500 to 5000 km). The ionosphere is a dynamic “mirror” that varies diurnally, seasonally, and with the solar cycle. Geolocation of targets observed by OTHR, (Coordinate Registration; CR), requires accurate real-time ionospheric modeling and HF propagation calculations to convert radar-measured target signal delays and beam steers to geographical position.

Our team at NWRA is the developer of what is arguably the most sophisticated CR capability currently in existence, CREDO (Coordinate Registration Enhancement by Dynamic Optimization). CREDO uses OTHR vertical and oblique backscatter soundings to model the ionosphere by applying Tikhonov’s methodology for solving ill-posed problems (extended to multidimensional nonlinear inverse problems and optimized for fast numerical solution). This produces the smoothest ionosphere that agrees with input data within measurement error. More recently we developed a Tikhonov-based ionospheric data assimilation capability called GPSII (GPS Ionospheric Inversion; pronounced “gypsy”). GPSII is capable of ingesting data from GPS and LEO satellite beacons, in situ electron density (e.g., DMSP or CHAMP satellites), JASON altimeter, DORIS, and vertical incidence sounders. We propose to merge the CREDO and GPSII capabilities into a state-of-the-art OTHR CR capability and demonstrate resulting metric accuracy improvement. BENEFIT: The incorporation of additional ionospheric data beyond conventional OTHR vertical and oblique backscatter soundings is expected to improve the fidelity of real-time ionosphere models, resulting in improved OTHR Coordinate Registration metric accuracy. The Next Generation OTH Radar (NGOTHR) is expected to have the additional benefit of elevation information in its backscatter soundings, and this can be incorporated in our solution method for additional fidelity. Furthermore, because GPSII uses a non-radar-centric coordinate system, a single self-consistent ionosphere model can be developed for multiple OTH radars in the same region. This will result in consistent CR of targets in overlapping coverage areas and ensure smooth track continuity as targets move from one radar’s coverage to another. Improved CR metric accuracy will enhance the applicability of OTHR as a wide area surveillance asset for Air Force and Homeland Security applications with dramatic cost savings over alternative microwave radar solutions.

Over the horizon radars is not for tracking ships, its only for space detection and ICBMs warheads detection, do research before you post crap