HAL LCA Tejas: Updates, News & Discussions

[Magadh]

"TEJAS will become" Sums up the entire thread....

Trusting USA for supply of engines, despite past betrayals, was a foolish mistake by India. This decision could delay Tejas MK1A by 10 years. However, in my opinion, this setback might have a silver lining as it could accelerate the development of an indigenous engine and foster an alternative engine partnership with France.

 

[Yasser76]

Trusting USA for supply of engines, despite past betrayals, was a foolish mistake by India. This decision could delay Tejas MK1A by 10 years. However, in my opinion, this setback might have a silver lining as it could accelerate the development of an indigenous engine and foster an alternative engine partnership with France.

Better make an engine specifically for AMCA. By the time own is ready for Tejas the plane will be obsolete. Best look at Tejas project as a massive learning project for Indian aviation, and some good product development experiance, but now move on

 

[MirageBlue]

Think IAF setting the stage PR wise to quietly shelve Tejas. As I suggested, this will become the Arjun of the IAF, 2-3 Sqds in degraded capability just for show and to maintain pride.

What a load of BS! They've released a RFP to HAL for 97 more Tejas Mk1A. For a total of 220 Tejas Mk1.

Plus the AON from the CCS for the Tejas Mk2 has released funds for it's development and flight testing. If anything, they're asking for speeded up deliveries. MRFA is nowhere in sight and Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 are the only types that are accorded permissions to be bought.

You used to make these kinds of nonsensical remarks on Keypubs many many years ago as well. Look where the program is, it'll meet the original goal of being procured in the hundreds. Just goes to show what a troll you are.

 

[Deino]

What a load of BS! …, it'll meet the original goal of being procured in the hundreds. Just goes to show what a troll you are.

Indeed, what a load of BS and especially the final sentence demonstrates this: yes for sure, „it'll meet the original goal of being procured in the hundreds“ but only after 40 years of development, after two de facto failed intermediate variants and at a time, most serious opponents almost retire that generation of fighters.

 

[Circadian Rhythm]

I love the Obsession that our "FRIENDS " have with Tejas

If it is a Non Issue just ignore it

We will continue on the Path of Self Reliance , No matter what it takes

Tejas is Not just about Military Capability ,it is about Pride

P.S. I have decided to Ignore All Non Indians on THIS thread, who are most welcome to keep laughing or giggling on their own silly jokes

Whatever makes you happy

 

[Deino]

I love the Obsession that our "FRIENDS " have with Tejas

If it is a Non Issue just ignore it

We will continue on the Path of Self Reliance , No matter what it takes

Tejas is Not just about Military Capability ,it is about Pride

P.S. I have decided to Ignore All Non Indians on THIS thread, who are most welcome to keep laughing or giggling on their own silly jokes

Whatever makes you happy

That’s all fine and if you ask any international military aviation expert, that’s the role Tejas plays … but do not constantly portray it as the epitome of engineering, capabilities and the high point of a fourth generation fighter

 

[Yasser76]

I love the Obsession that our "FRIENDS " have with Tejas

If it is a Non Issue just ignore it

We will continue on the Path of Self Reliance , No matter what it takes

Tejas is Not just about Military Capability ,it is about Pride

P.S. I have decided to Ignore All Non Indians on THIS thread, who are most welcome to keep laughing or giggling on their own silly jokes

Whatever makes you happy

1) It is a Tejas thread so yeah, kid of weird if we dont discuss it
2) You post regular on a "FRIENDS" forum
3) You ignoring us meets the wishes of many on here

 

[Ali_Baba]

GE engine supplies has nothing to do with either GE or the USA being unreliable to India or some plot to undermine the Tejas programme but everything to do with India taking soooo sooo damn long to make a decision that it allowed the supply lines and manufacturing capability of an engine they need - to lapse!!!!

This GE engine issue is on India, the IAF and HAL and not USA or GE……

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Yeah, needless to say HAL will make another promise and all the fan boys here will tell us again that by september they will have 4 fighting sqds of MK1A or whatever. The prooject is becoming a bad joke.

Tejas and JF-17 were basically started around same time (Tejas a bit earlier I think), they still do not have a fully fledged operational version of the M1KA, whilst JF-17 production is basically coming to an end soon with PAF moving on to PFX and FC-31.

Korean now have F-21 production read, Turks will start producing Kaan next year.

HAL has totally screwed over the IAF with fake promises. Best scenario is they will keep delivering essentially 4/4.5th gen aircraft whilst entire world moves on to 5th/6th Gen in next 10 years.

Worse case scenario it may take 20 years to deliver all M1KA/M2 planes, so basically still in the 4.5th gen game in 2045.

By then you could be looking at PAF/PLAAF fleets 100% 5th/6th Gen. Maybe a few J-10Cs and F-16s hanging on.

Fourth-generation jets will always be around and will continue to evolve, fifth-generation jets are not going to replace fourth-generation jets.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

In a major relief for IAF, HAL says it will be able to meet it's target of (16-18) Tejas Mk1A delivery to IAF in FY 2025, as General Electric has said it will be able to resume new engine deliveries from September-October and in the meantime HAL has enough reserve category B engines for ongoign Tejas Mk1A.

Preparations for a grand ceremony to handover first Tejas Mk1A to IAF next week is on.

 

[Yasser76]

Fourth-generation jets will always be around and will continue to evolve, fifth-generation jets are not going to replace fourth-generation jets.

Eventually yes they will.

 

[Yasser76]

In a major relief for IAF, HAL says it will be able to meet it's target of (16-18) Tejas Mk1A delivery to IAF in FY 2025, as General Electric has said it will be able to resume new engine deliveries from September-October and in the meantime HAL has enough reserve category B engines for ongoign Tejas Mk1A.

Preparations for a grand ceremony to handover first Tejas Mk1A to IAF next week is on.

Where did you hear this news? Shall we take best on this "grand ceremony" being part of a wet dream?

 

[MirageBlue]

Indeed, what a load of BS and especially the final sentence demonstrates this: yes for sure, „it'll meet the original goal of being procured in the hundreds“ but only after 40 years of development, after two de facto failed intermediate variants and at a time, most serious opponents almost retire that generation of fighters.

It has met the national goal of establishing an aerospace industry that can spawn new fighter programs at a much faster pace. It has brought the expertise to design new fighters on our own, something that was one of the original goals of the program. It has set up infrastructure that today is being used to design a 5th gen fighter program with no foreign input for design assistance.

LCA Tejas program is why today India can upgrade Jaguars on it's own, Su-30MKI on it's own with almost 100% indigenous upgrade. Every aspect of the Su-30MKI upgrade, from the AESA radar, EW suite, IRST, displays, is derived from programs that were linked to the Tejas program. I won't go into the benefits of that, but it should be apparent to most people.

Same thing happened with the ALH Dhruv. HAL collaborated with MBB for the original design, then MBB exited, after which HAL took on ALH on its own which slowed the pace of development. And after the long development period for the ALH, it entered service with the IA, IAF and IN and is now serving in the hundreds. An imported helicopter would've meant billions of USD to a foreign OEM. The next helicopter designs have all been developed within much shorter time frames, for e.g. the ALH Mk2, ALH Rudra, LCH Prachand which is in production with over 165 to be built for the IA and IAF and the LUH which will eventually be procured in the hundreds to replace Cheetahs and Chetaks. Plus the 13 ton IMRH which is in development to replace Mi-17s.

LCA that was originally envisioned and whose development began in ~1990 is quite different from the specs of the Tejas Mk1 in service and very different from the Tejas Mk1A that is to enter service. I won't even go into how wrong that "40 years of development" is because by that standard the JF-17 has been in development since 1986 or so when the concept of the Super-7 started. But I guess you aren't really interested in anything more than just bite size rhetoric.

The Naval LCA that you call a "failed variant" (not sure which other variant of LCA you called failed intermediate variant) is a step towards an in service clean sheet naval fighter design (TEDBF), something that your beloved China hasn't yet been able to do either till date.

Can you point out a single clean sheet Chinese fighter that has landed on and taken off from an aircraft carrier? All it has is a reverse engineered Su-33 with some upgrades. China hasn't actually managed to land any clean sheet design on a carrier as yet. Leave aside taking off. N-LCA has done that, repeatedly. And proven that the design was able to do what is one of the most difficult things in combat aviation, which is to safely land and take off from a carrier. It can still take on the role of a supersonic, combat capable naval trainer, far more capable than the L-15 derived naval trainer that gets you so excited. The problem is that the Indian Armed Forces will much rather go for imports, than take on an indigenous product that doesn't meet some of their requirements. Case in point- the Rafale M. China tended to do the opposite, since Western imports, especially of fighters was next to impossible.

Nevertheless, I won't dump on China's capabilities the way you repeatedly do on India. Because I am not in the least bit interested in trolling or feeding my ego.

I am fully aware of what the Chinese goals are and how national capability building is rigorously followed by them, even if it takes ages or the path followed is reverse engineering. Their turbofan engine programs are a case in point. Failure after failure, that too after having taken a CFM56 engine as a core design for the WS10 engine. And now they have it in production on single engine fighters. Because they wanted to succeed, money was available and spent. Jibes of "35 years in development" for the WS10 Taihang mean nothing in comparison to actually having it in service.

If one looks at the histories of countries like USA, Russia, France, UK, they've had dozens upon dozens of failed programs for every successful one. The one thing that is common is that it takes consistent effort and engineering hard work to achieve finesse. It takes lots of iterations to get things perfect. If you want to mock that and act holier than thou, that really reflects on who you are, not India or it's aerospace industry, which chugs along despite getting a fraction of the funding that even China devotes to it.

That troll Yasser has no shame. His own country is debt ridden, economically backward, scientifically backward, yet he thinks that by repeating lies or pointing out Indian failures, it will somehow affect India's progress. His own native country Pakistan, which at one point of time was actually economically almost a peer of India, is now sliding backwards in all respects, but he thinks that mocking India on the internet will make all the difference instead o

I'm sorry to say that you are not a serious, genuine analyst, since I'm having to point out all these things to you. Your bias is so strong, you're basically just a senior Chinese fanboy.

 

[MirageBlue]

GE engine supplies has nothing to do with either GE or the USA being unreliable to India or some plot to undermine the Tejas programme but everything to do with India taking soooo sooo damn long to make a decision that it allowed the supply lines and manufacturing capability of an engine they need - to lapse!!!!

This GE engine issue is on India, the IAF and HAL and not USA or GE……

Nope.

The fault in this case is with GE, and they are openly agreeing that it is due to their supply chain issues. They signed a contract with HAL, according to which the deliveries of engines were to begin in November 2023.

If there was an issue with restarting an assembly line because India had not ordered more F-404 engines then they should have made that clear at the time of contract signature.

Besides, F-404s were being built for KAI, but at Hanwha Aerospace's facilities. Those are license assembled F-404s for which most of the parts are actually still built by GE, except for some which Hanwha produces under license.

GE will be supplying the first GE F-404-IN20 engine literally 1 year later than what was contracted. A company that signs a contract is held responsible for not meeting it's timelines. HAL has had more than it's fair share of delays, but this one is entirely GE's fault.

But yes, all this nonsense about US sabotaging the Tejas Mk1A program makes no sense, because GE is a private company whose primary goal is to make profits for it's shareholders. It got the required licenses from the US Govt to export the F-404-IN20 to India long ago and stands to gain nothing by wilfully delaying F-404 deliveries, especially when a much more lucrative F-414 deal is to be converted.

Flight Global article

India’s state-owned airframer Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is grappling with delays in deliveries of GE Aerospace F404-IN20 engines for the Tejas Mk-1A fighter.

Original plans called for HAL to deliver the first Tejas Mk-1A to the Indian air force in February. However, the first Tejas Mk-1A (LA5033) only took to the air in March and the airframer is behind its initial delivery schedule.

FlightGlobal understands that a key factor behind the delay is GE Aerospace’s failure to deliver F404 engines as scheduled.

When contacted by FlightGlobal, GE Aerospace had this to say: “The aerospace industry continues to experience unprecedented supply chain pressures. GE Aerospace is working with our partner HAL and suppliers to resolve constraints and deliver F404-IN20 engines for the LCA Mk-1A programme.”

FlightGlobal understands that F404 deliveries are likely to begin in September, helping HAL to accelerate production.

Further delays could force HAL to install used engines from its existing inventory.

In February 2021, India’s defence ministry contracted HAL to deliver 83 Mk-1As in a deal worth about Rs480 billion ($5.7 billion). HAL subsequently ordered 99 F404s in a deal worth US$716 million.

Deliveries of the first three aircraft were planned for 2024, with the annual production rate rising to 16 aircraft annually from 2025, with all deliveries completed by 2029.

 

[MirageBlue]

Indeed, what a load of BS and especially the final sentence demonstrates this: yes for sure, „it'll meet the original goal of being procured in the hundreds“ but only after 40 years of development, after two de facto failed intermediate variants and at a time, most serious opponents almost retire that generation of fighters.

As for "most serious opponents almost retire that generation of fighters"..

Well that's a load of BS.

One of our primary opponents is still flying nearly 150 units of nearly 50 year old Mirages and obsolete F-7PGs. Have you even taken a look at their capabilities? IAF is upgrading over 65 of it's Jaguars to DARIN 3 with Elta 2052 AESA radars, what is the PAF doing with these 150 units that is even comparable?

IAF will retire all it's MiG-21s by next year, leaving the Jaguar as it's oldest fighter, almost all of which will be retired by 2034. Tejas Mk2s will replace these starting 2034-2035.

But the PAF is going to keep these going for a lot longer with no money to replace them all one by one. I mean Pakistan had to go to the IMF for a USD 3 billion bailout! How on earth are they going to replace 150 of these when the total costs will approach USD 6-8 billion even for a JF-17 Blk3 that will cost approx USD 40 million only! Leave aside J-10CP that will easily cost USD 55-60 million each even if they're directly imported off the shelf.

And I won't even talk about the 120 odd JF-17 Block 1 and 2s that PAF can't even dream of replacing for another 20 years.

So the PAF needs to retire nearly 150 3rd gen fighters urgently, has nearly 120 JF-17 Block 1 and 2s that are not even properly 4th gen and you're telling us that our enemies are retiring Tejas Mk1 type fighters??

Or are you suggesting that PAF suddenly hit upon a gold mine for itself and can afford to retire 270 of these 2nd and 3rd gen fighters?

Just because their ACM stated that they'll get J-31/J-35 doesn't mean that it's going to be inducted in huge numbers. They aren't going to be cheap! My guesstimate will be at least USD 70-80 million each (flyaway), which means that even 2 squadrons will cost nearly USD 4 billion. That's just 36 fighters, not even close to the 270 that are not 4th gen fighters at the Tejas Mk1A level.

As for PLAAF, I suggest you study the geography of Tibet and how many air bases there are across from India and how many fighters PLAAF can bring to bear just against India. At it's highest number during the period after the Galwan crisis, no more than a 100 fighters

BTW, is PLAAF planning to retire it's older all alloy J-10As that neither feature AESA nor have the avionics of J-10C ?