October 1973 Ramadan War
- Thread starter The SC
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GoMig-21
Elite Member
Sharon was injured in Ismailiyah also before he was forced to retreat and abandon his wet dream of cutting off the 2nd Army. He was almost killed and so was Moshe Dayan (I call him the "one-eyed bandit"). Brave Egyptian men in an Mi-8 helicopter flew over him and his posse when they were walking among the wadis and canals and beautiful villages all happy and proud of their criminal actions and hand dropped a MiG-17 bomb and barely missed him and his entire criminal gang. The pictures of that event are in some zionist book I don't have it but some fella posted them in an old forum (the one I was telling you about) and they are amazing! The photographer they used for their propaganda was with them and actually took pictured of the helicopter flying super low over these clowns in one of the most amazing wartime picture sequence you'll ever see. Then the zionist had a mobile HAWK SAM system with them (courtesy of the US & Operation Nickle Grass) and immediately shot the helicopter down. Those men were true martyrs, too bad they didn't time and aim the drop so it would've landed on that SOB's head. What an event that would've been but the pictures of him and his bodyguards laying on the ground with a look of horror on their faces loool was great. Not good enough, though.
You know they wrote songs about Sheikh Hafez Salama, right? The locals and some of the nearby Bedouin tribes wrote and sang songs about him and their resistance I wish I could find them. 7aga 3azeema.
Shazly wrote in his book that he originally asked the Russians for many more tracked, mobile SAM-6s so they could accompany the 2nd & 3rd Divisions deeper into the Sinai and help protect them against the zionist air force so they can move beyond the SAM-2 umbrella range, at least until the passes where they would have better natural shelter because of the mountains. But the Russians refused and their excuse didn't make sense to Shazly who then figured out that the Soviets didn't want to give Egypt the ability to push the Israelis completely out of the Sinai and threaten Israel itself, which wasn't the intention anyway. They were actually protecting the zionist because they didn't want any backlash from the Soviet Jewish contingent, which is bigger than people think. Unlike the US which gave the zionist ample number of HAWK batteries which allowed them to move west of the canal.
The SC
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #63
How was the air strike a major cause of the October 1973 victory?
President Sadat’s choice of Hosni Mubarak to lead the Air Forces in the October War and his insistence on carrying out an air strike at the beginning of the war despite the objection of Field Marshal Ahmed Ismail, Minister of Defense at that time, was the utmost genius of Sadat!! How?! You asked me how!! A point from the beginning of the line!
Choosing Hosni Mubarak as Commander of the Air Force was the height of intelligence on the part of Sadat, because Hosni Mubarak, despite his competence in planning air battles and training pilots, was not one of the well-known faces of the Israeli leaders, and he worked in silence and did not like to make propaganda for himself. All of this made the Israeli leaders greatly underestimate his abilities and belittle them. With it! Especially since Egypt does not have advanced types of aircraft like Israel’s! Thus, Israel decided that Egypt would not be able to fear war unless it obtained these advanced types! If there is a war, the Egyptian Air Force will be out of service during the war!!!
All this while Hosni Mubarak is racing against time to prepare the air force for war!! He works in silence and complete secrecy!
Field Marshal Ahmed Ismail told President Sadat that he was afraid that Israel was monitoring the Air Force’s preparations for war! Because this means losing the element of surprise in the air strike and in the war itself!
But Hosni Mubarak, whom Sadat chose and trusted, was ready with a complex camouflage plan that made the Israelis think on October 6 that the Egyptian aviation was on a training mission until zero hour came!
The air strike was carried out with amazing success and with minimal losses!!
The air strike caused the enemy's leaders to become confused and lose control of their forces! The air strike was credited with securing the crossing of the Egyptian army, speeding up the fall of the forts of the Bar Lev line, and delaying the enemy’s counterattacks to some extent. The Egyptian army was firmly established in Sinai!
Sadat was right when he said about Hosni Mubarak that the Israelis respect him very much because he is a competent leader and because the strike was severe!!
220 EAF fighter planes from all of Egypt’s airports took off simultaneously and struck Sinai in the area of the Bar Lev Line and its environs..
Regarding the details of the air strike and the extent of losses:
1- Destruction of the Israeli command and control centers in Sinai. Consequently, communication was cut off between the enemy leadership in Sinai and the enemy’s senior leadership in Israel. Communication was also completely cut off between the enemy leadership in Sinai and the soldiers besieged in the forts of the Bar Lev Line. They were unable to inform their commanders in Sinai about the size and quality of the Egyptian forces. The attack and the directions of its advance. Consequently, the enemy command in Sinai was unable to send quick and effective assistance to save the besieged forts of the Bar Lev Line, which led to the ease and speed of overthrowing these forts.
2- Destroying the enemy airports in Sinai and thus depriving the enemy of using them for a relatively long period. Consequently, the enemy planes in the airports near the crossing square were unable to direct attacks against our forces crossing the canal in their most critical moments and until the actual crossing waves began and the erection of the bridges began.
3- Destroying the EW centers in Sinai, which affects the efficiency of the work of air defense units and the direction of fighters.
4- Destroying two long-range artillery positions whose fire could have hit our forces that crossed the canal
5- Destroying 12 Hawk missile sites
6- Destroying two fortified points of the Bar Lev line
7- 20 Israeli aircraft were destroyed while they were on the ground at three enemy airports. This is mentioned in the memoirs of Lieutenant General Abdel Moneim Al-Wasel, commander of the Third Field Army in the October War.
8- The losses of the air strike in our The EAF force amounted to 11 aircraft
President Sadat’s choice of Hosni Mubarak to lead the Air Forces in the October War and his insistence on carrying out an air strike at the beginning of the war despite the objection of Field Marshal Ahmed Ismail, Minister of Defense at that time, was the utmost genius of Sadat!! How?! You asked me how!! A point from the beginning of the line!
Choosing Hosni Mubarak as Commander of the Air Force was the height of intelligence on the part of Sadat, because Hosni Mubarak, despite his competence in planning air battles and training pilots, was not one of the well-known faces of the Israeli leaders, and he worked in silence and did not like to make propaganda for himself. All of this made the Israeli leaders greatly underestimate his abilities and belittle them. With it! Especially since Egypt does not have advanced types of aircraft like Israel’s! Thus, Israel decided that Egypt would not be able to fear war unless it obtained these advanced types! If there is a war, the Egyptian Air Force will be out of service during the war!!!
All this while Hosni Mubarak is racing against time to prepare the air force for war!! He works in silence and complete secrecy!
Field Marshal Ahmed Ismail told President Sadat that he was afraid that Israel was monitoring the Air Force’s preparations for war! Because this means losing the element of surprise in the air strike and in the war itself!
But Hosni Mubarak, whom Sadat chose and trusted, was ready with a complex camouflage plan that made the Israelis think on October 6 that the Egyptian aviation was on a training mission until zero hour came!
The air strike was carried out with amazing success and with minimal losses!!
The air strike caused the enemy's leaders to become confused and lose control of their forces! The air strike was credited with securing the crossing of the Egyptian army, speeding up the fall of the forts of the Bar Lev line, and delaying the enemy’s counterattacks to some extent. The Egyptian army was firmly established in Sinai!
Sadat was right when he said about Hosni Mubarak that the Israelis respect him very much because he is a competent leader and because the strike was severe!!
220 EAF fighter planes from all of Egypt’s airports took off simultaneously and struck Sinai in the area of the Bar Lev Line and its environs..
Regarding the details of the air strike and the extent of losses:
1- Destruction of the Israeli command and control centers in Sinai. Consequently, communication was cut off between the enemy leadership in Sinai and the enemy’s senior leadership in Israel. Communication was also completely cut off between the enemy leadership in Sinai and the soldiers besieged in the forts of the Bar Lev Line. They were unable to inform their commanders in Sinai about the size and quality of the Egyptian forces. The attack and the directions of its advance. Consequently, the enemy command in Sinai was unable to send quick and effective assistance to save the besieged forts of the Bar Lev Line, which led to the ease and speed of overthrowing these forts.
2- Destroying the enemy airports in Sinai and thus depriving the enemy of using them for a relatively long period. Consequently, the enemy planes in the airports near the crossing square were unable to direct attacks against our forces crossing the canal in their most critical moments and until the actual crossing waves began and the erection of the bridges began.
3- Destroying the EW centers in Sinai, which affects the efficiency of the work of air defense units and the direction of fighters.
4- Destroying two long-range artillery positions whose fire could have hit our forces that crossed the canal
5- Destroying 12 Hawk missile sites
6- Destroying two fortified points of the Bar Lev line
7- 20 Israeli aircraft were destroyed while they were on the ground at three enemy airports. This is mentioned in the memoirs of Lieutenant General Abdel Moneim Al-Wasel, commander of the Third Field Army in the October War.
8- The losses of the air strike in our The EAF force amounted to 11 aircraft
The SC
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #64
The victorious party is the one who imposes its conditions..The victor is the one who writes history, not the other way around..
Egypt is the victorious party, and it is the one that imposed its conditions on Israel, the losing party, and forced it to leave Egyptian territory..
Attempts by some to falsify the facts are nothing but a ridiculous tone....With reason, if they have reason, if Israel is a victorious party, why will it withdraw from the occupied territories?
The October War is one of the wars that is taught in military schools and has evidence that demonstrates the greatness of action in light of limited capabilities in front of an opponent who has all the capabilities available.
Using common weapons in battle and managing their branches in harmony, agreement and extreme precision..
The crossing in itself is a great battle for those who understand the military strategies of the water barrier border, the Bar Lev line, and its fortifications along the canal line..
Contrary to what Egypt has added to military tactics, whether in the War of Attrition or the October War, such as using launchers for the first time to sink destroyers in the War of Attrition, the October is a witness to a historical epic for the great people of Egypt, whether in terms of self-revenge or in the battles of Suez and Ismailia... The Egyptians always respect their heroism and their history that they have created with their solid will..
Egypt is the victorious party, and it is the one that imposed its conditions on Israel, the losing party, and forced it to leave Egyptian territory..
Attempts by some to falsify the facts are nothing but a ridiculous tone....With reason, if they have reason, if Israel is a victorious party, why will it withdraw from the occupied territories?
The October War is one of the wars that is taught in military schools and has evidence that demonstrates the greatness of action in light of limited capabilities in front of an opponent who has all the capabilities available.
Using common weapons in battle and managing their branches in harmony, agreement and extreme precision..
The crossing in itself is a great battle for those who understand the military strategies of the water barrier border, the Bar Lev line, and its fortifications along the canal line..
Contrary to what Egypt has added to military tactics, whether in the War of Attrition or the October War, such as using launchers for the first time to sink destroyers in the War of Attrition, the October is a witness to a historical epic for the great people of Egypt, whether in terms of self-revenge or in the battles of Suez and Ismailia... The Egyptians always respect their heroism and their history that they have created with their solid will..
The SC
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #65
The head of Israeli intelligence during the October War: The Egyptians deserve a “High military award” for the deception plan:
"The political, military and intelligence leadership in Israel committed 20 mistakes that caused the defeat.”
In a lengthy interview with Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper published today, Friday, on the occasion of the 41st anniversary of the October War, Eli Zeira, head of the Israeli military intelligence “Aman,” blamed the political, military, and Israeli intelligence leadership, which he said had committed at least twenty mistakes that caused Israel’s defeat. In the war.
Zaira, who was recommended by the Agranat Committee to be expelled from his position after Aman failed to anticipate the Arab attack, said that the mistakes committed in the war are still present, and he continued, saying, “I know today that we did not understand the Arabs at all, and I was wrong when I thought that Aman’s experts understood them.” .
Zaira described the joint meetings with Prime Minister Golda Meir and Defense Minister Moshe Dayan as foolishness, and said: I was sitting there and listening to the foolishness of Golda, Dayan and other ministers regarding the Arabs. Golda Meir refused to believe the Egyptian leadership’s statements about the necessity of liberating the Suez Canal and storming the Bar Lev Line, adding that he did not try to correct Golda’s mistakes.
Zaira denied that he was the only one who made a mistake in not warning of the outbreak of war. He said that in April 1973 he saw pictures of renovation operations at Egyptian airports, and that Air Force Intelligence told him that these airports would need months to become ready and operational for operations, which is the same as what was seen by the men of the Research Division in Military Intelligence and adopted by Zaira.
Zaira added that if he had warned the army of the outbreak of war, and it had not broken out, they would have accused him of stupidity. It is true that there were hundreds of pieces of information about the imminent war, but on the other hand, there were thousands of pieces of information that said it would not break out.
Zaira believed that the Egyptians deserved a military award for their success in the strategic deception plan and concealing everything that indicated their readiness for war, and that Aman’s mistake was in determining what the Egyptians wanted, as the prevailing assumption in Aman was that what the Egyptians wanted was access to the depths of Sinai. They are still unable to achieve it, and what they can achieve is to cross the canal and penetrate a few kilometers, and they do not want to do it.
Zaira explained that military intelligence believed that the Egyptians were interested in reaching the line of straits in central Sinai, and this would require five combat air squadrons and other weapons that the Egyptians did not possess, adding that the Egyptians’ plans reached Israeli military intelligence, but we did not know that these plans were false, or at least it has changed, and that is why the Egyptians deserve a “High military award.”
In a lengthy interview with Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper published today, Friday, on the occasion of the 41st anniversary of the October War, Eli Zeira, head of the Israeli military intelligence “Aman,” blamed the political, military, and Israeli intelligence leadership, which he said had committed at least twenty mistakes that caused Israel’s defeat. In the war.
Zaira, who was recommended by the Agranat Committee to be expelled from his position after Aman failed to anticipate the Arab attack, said that the mistakes committed in the war are still present, and he continued, saying, “I know today that we did not understand the Arabs at all, and I was wrong when I thought that Aman’s experts understood them.” .
Zaira described the joint meetings with Prime Minister Golda Meir and Defense Minister Moshe Dayan as foolishness, and said: I was sitting there and listening to the foolishness of Golda, Dayan and other ministers regarding the Arabs. Golda Meir refused to believe the Egyptian leadership’s statements about the necessity of liberating the Suez Canal and storming the Bar Lev Line, adding that he did not try to correct Golda’s mistakes.
Zaira denied that he was the only one who made a mistake in not warning of the outbreak of war. He said that in April 1973 he saw pictures of renovation operations at Egyptian airports, and that Air Force Intelligence told him that these airports would need months to become ready and operational for operations, which is the same as what was seen by the men of the Research Division in Military Intelligence and adopted by Zaira.
Zaira added that if he had warned the army of the outbreak of war, and it had not broken out, they would have accused him of stupidity. It is true that there were hundreds of pieces of information about the imminent war, but on the other hand, there were thousands of pieces of information that said it would not break out.
Zaira believed that the Egyptians deserved a military award for their success in the strategic deception plan and concealing everything that indicated their readiness for war, and that Aman’s mistake was in determining what the Egyptians wanted, as the prevailing assumption in Aman was that what the Egyptians wanted was access to the depths of Sinai. They are still unable to achieve it, and what they can achieve is to cross the canal and penetrate a few kilometers, and they do not want to do it.
Zaira explained that military intelligence believed that the Egyptians were interested in reaching the line of straits in central Sinai, and this would require five combat air squadrons and other weapons that the Egyptians did not possess, adding that the Egyptians’ plans reached Israeli military intelligence, but we did not know that these plans were false, or at least it has changed, and that is why the Egyptians deserve a “High military award.”
UKBengali
Elite Member
I have always said the Russians were not true allies of the Arabs.
They only supplied stuff for their rivalry with the US during the Cold War and influence in Arab world.
Don’t think it was just due to Soviet Jewry as the Soviets were actually in favour of the entity, as they recognised it before any other country did so.
They could have went even further and supplied T-72s and the brand new SA-8 SAM.
Egypt would have regained the Sinai in October 1973 War but the Soviets did not supply enough capable hardware.
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
That's why many people, particularly those who don't study history and geopolitics of Egypt, fail to comprehend why Egypt couldn't mount a full-scale invasion of the Sinai.
For example, in 2020 or in 2021, Egypt was an observer for a NATO Navy exercice in the Black Sea and Russia was angering about that then decided to go against us during the UN council on the GERD dam problem (@GoMig-21 you remember this case)?
UKBengali
Elite Member
Whites always favour other whites, even if they are Jewish.
Once China has balanced out the whites, then this evil system will be destroyed and replaced with one that gives peace and opportunities for all.
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
True but here they sided with Ethiopia and even give them some SU-series aircrafts and military training.
Like Henry Kissinger said : "In foreign policy, there are no permanent allies, only permanent interests."
GoMig-21
Elite Member
Including President Sadat's son, Atef El‐Sadat who was a MiG-21 pilot in one of those 209 aircraft taking part in the initial aerial attacks of the war. It's unclear how he was killed if he was shot down by an enemy aircraft or by a surface to air missile or even if his aircraft had a technical failure and crashed. But it goes to show the valiant bravery of even the President's son himself wanting to serve and fight for his country.
The objectives were clear, to take out enemy command & control headquarters, communication centers as well as electronic warfare assets and they succeeded in doing that which was a critical element in the initial attack prior to the crossing phase. And since its goal was nothing fancy like shooting airplanes on the ground or dogfighting or anything like that, it hardly received any positive coverage from the media or subsequent war authors who mostly wrote it off as actually an inconsequential effort. Imagine the gal on these absolute cretins who couldn't even make the effort to research the actual results of that initial Egyptian air assault and how it succeeded. Such a shame and especially when the President's son himself was one of the martyrs in that assault. It was strictly an air-to-ground military operation that succeeded in its objectives with tremendous success, and only losing 11 aircraft out of 209.
Even the loss of manpower in the initial crossing was unexpectedly low. With all the pre-planned defenses by the enemy such as the flammable liquid & piping set up in the canal to burn men & soldiers attempting to cross that were taken out by Egyptian Navy Frogmen & Commandos the night before the war and the enemy defenses along the barrier, the high command expected close to 20K deaths. I forget the actual number, but it was barely over 200 soldiers who were martyred in the initial crossing. Not to belittle the value of the brave Egyptian soldier's life, but out of 90,000 men in 5 divisions crossing the canal and to have only 200+ losses, that is a staggering low number!
The "straits" as in the "passes" that I mentioned about in Shazly's plan and Zaira was actually right about that. In the sense that it was the initial plan for the Egyptian military to reach the passes -- which for those who don't know -- are a series of north-south mountains. The two main passes through those mountains were given zionist names, Mitla & Gidi. The stretch of mountains are approximately 50km east of the canal and stretch north to south starting about 60km south from the northern coast. (I know you know all this stuff SC bro, I'm just adding context for other readers who might not be aware of all these details so they can follow accurately if they're interested.
Mitla being the main one of the two passes through that mountain range and that mountain range being a natural barrier or "fence" made the passes critical strategic assets as they're essentially the only way through for tanks, armor & infantry from the east to the west & vice versa.
So reaching them & capturing them was initially part of Shazly's plan, but being the great military strategist that he was, he knew that would be a stretch for the SA-2's range, thus beyond the SAM umbrella and so he limited the intrusion of Egyptian armored divisions to only the 30kms depth. An initially wise decision & plan.
However, it goes to show how reaching the passes would've been a huge strategic benefit since it would've basically cut off the zionist from counter-attacking the Egyptian bridgeheads on the east bank of the canal. Had the been able to reach the passes, the zionist would've been totally cut off from accessing the 2nd & 3rd Armies and all 5 Egyptian armed & mechanized divisions. That is how critical those SA-6s were which the Soviets wouldn't supply enough of.
Not only would they have allowed the Egyptian divisions to reach the passes and secure the entire east bank, but it would've protected them additionally to the SAM umbrella range and would've been an additional defensive asset instead of relying completely on the SAM umbrella only. Imagine that critical element that actually made the HUGE difference for the Egyptian military in this campaign.
In the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Egypt had 20 mobile SA-6 SAM systems, backed up by 70 SA-2s, 65 SA-3s, and upward of 2,500 anti-aircraft batteries and about 3,000 SA-7s.
SA-2s were the main SAM element on the west bank of the canal and responsible for the greater umbrella range. It caused fear & terror to the enemy aircraft and was responsible for brining down the majority of zionist aircraft.
The enemy lost more than 1/3 of its murderous air force in the first week of the war they couldn't even fly low to escape radar detection like they thought they could.
ziaulislam
Elite Member
For Eygpt/Jordan/Arabs who accepted Israel and settled Arabs
Remember Eygpt washed it hands off
As far as Palestinians, syrians, Lebanese and Iraqis well they never got in line
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
It wasn't his son but his little brother. I remember Ahmed El Saka was playing him in أيام السادات. There is some speculations that he was the first martyr of this war to be killed. But surely he was one of the first to be martyred.
الله يرحمه
GoMig-21
Elite Member
Yes, you are correct! I haven't seen the movie and several others that are on my list someday IsA.
Allah Y'erhamu indeed.
Ghostkiller
Registered Member
أيام السادات is indeed a very good movie. It is one of my fav. Sadat (الله يرحمه) is f*cking very smart and you will see how smart he was in the movie and in real life.
GoMig-21
Elite Member
I've been meaning to watch it for quite some time but for some reason I never get around to it lol.
He was a brilliant man but his one battlefield decision almost ruined the entire war effort. And that critical decision wasn't even necessary and wasn't part of the original plan that Shazly had outlined and that was followed & executed to precision and was unbelievably successful, literally. And it's not like he wasn't a military man or strategist, he was with an extensive military background working with Nasser. But that ill-fated decision to move the elite 4th division that was in reserve in the west bank of the canal over to the east was beyond comprehensible. It didn't even have a single justification to it and the reason given about relieving pressure on the Syrians was ridiculous. I don't think he ever admitted that was a huge mistake.
And Shazly who was also blamed for making the terrible decision of moving the 21st division from the 2nd field army south to meet the 25th division from the 3rd army and close the gap prior to the battle of the Chinese Farm was also ill-fated, but at least it was strategiccally sound and important and made sense. The only problem was they didn't time the two moves in unison, or at the same time. The 21st moved south first and then much later the 25th moved north which gave the zionist enough time to throw the full brunt of their armor on each division one at a time. Had it been coordinated properly and they both arrived at the same time, they would've easily overwhelmed the zionist attack. Or at least made them think about it and possibly not attempt it and there would've never been an incursion onto the west bank by the enemy in the first place.
Even after when it still wasn't too late to stop the advancement of Adan to the south or even Sharon into Ismailiya, Shazly begged Sadat to allow him to move a small battalion of armor and especially infantry with saggers from the 2nd Army west to deal with the low number of enemy tanks but Sadat wouldn't budge. His excuse that he didn't want to alarm the rest of the division and men into thinking there was a dangerous situation and have them lose morale was a bit over-justified. There was some element of truth to that, especially that they were all weary of the horrible defeat in 67 and he thought they would panic seeing what would look as a withdrawal, but Shazly said that wouldn't have been the case. Besides, it would've nullified the enemy's advance south and stopped them right at their bridgehead and at least gave the Egyptian forces more time to consolidate more forces to make up for Sadat's other ill-fated decision with the 4th division and its tremendous losses.
So I give him credit for sure, but I also give him negative points for really those horrible tactical decisions.
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