PA Options against Indian Armour - ATGMs on MANPADS & Attack Gunship Helicopter - News & Discussions

[Toxic]

doesnt matter...

the Ukraine war showed these are nothing more than magnets for drones and anti tank system. in the modern battlefield the tank has limited use... in fact Russian soldiers were using motor cycles to get around the battle field instead of armoured vehicles

Is there anything that can replace the organic fire support the tank provides?

 

[MS Sandhu]

doesnt matter...

the Ukraine war showed these are nothing more than magnets for drones and anti tank system. in the modern battlefield the tank has limited use... in fact Russian soldiers were using motor cycles to get around the battle field instead of armoured vehicles

To hold your land,you still need tanks

 

[Lion]

really?

if you cant achieve local air superiority you are going anywhere

the anti tank ware is prime example how armored formations have huge limitations.

There isnt much indian armor can do against Pakistan.

Well thankfully that’s for the army leadership to decide and not commenters on a forum - local air superiority is not a requirement for tanks to work well, it is however a very clear requirement for UCAVs and drones to be relevant.

Armored Columns don’t travel alone, combined arms warfare dictates that armored columns go with every supporting arm needed from Engineers to infantry to SHORADs. It’s a cycle of each arm supporting and protecting each other which makes an armored thrust a success. Neither Ukraine nor Russia have used combined armed warfare effectively - the US however did and we saw the results.

As Anti-tank weaponry evolves so too do Active protection systems. The tank is not going to be irrelevant unless something takes its place and does what it does - both countries are not investing nearly a billion dollars into tanks over the next decade for no reason.

 

[Lion]

Haiders are now our top tier tank

Are AK1 or AK2s still being made or pursued, or is it just Haiders now?

New AKs are not being produced at the moment - only Haider is being made at HIT.

“AK-2” (or rather AK modernization project) is still on going to bring AK and AK-1 fleet closer to Haider standards.

The only other tank in active production at the moment is Al-Zarrar - more are being made of the newer version to fill in the gaps from Type 59s retiring and a potential early retirement of UDs.

 

[Joe Shearer]

your ignorance legendary.. then again you are an indian

They even told that to the Shah of iran when he toyed with the idea of a joint tank project with Pakistan

It has to be said with admiration and (due) regard - your knowledge of matters miliary is legendary.

it doesnt believe tank warfare.

Now THAT is quite possible.
Let's see.

1. Haider - 179
2. Al Khalid - 300
3. Al Khalid I - 110
4. T80UD - 320
5. Al Zarrar - 500
6. Type 85 - 268
7. Type 69 - 400
8. Type 59 - 600

As an Indian, my blood freezes to think of what the numbers might have been, if the PA believed tank warfare.

it doesnt believe tank warfare.

Quite possible. It never happened; western propaganda to fool innocent Chinese armament firms into making thousands of tanks.

 

[Lion]

@Lion

Wouldn't tanks be sitting ducks for drones and all kinds of ground attack missiles, including dedicated anti tank ones?

Regards

If you send in a tank or a formation of tanks alone into battle then yeah - anything will pick them off easily. That’s what we saw in Ukraine.

If you use proper combined arms doctrine where infantry, tanks, SHORADS, engineers, AD, gunships and Anti-tank infantry all travel together to support each other, then no, tanks are not sitting ducks.

Anything alone is going to fail - that’s the basic principle of combined arms. If you send infantry without armor cover they will fail, if you send UCAVs without ground support they will fail.

Pakistan and India have vast open terrain in the deserts and plains - there is no other effective way to cross it and take enemy land other than armor.

Anti-tank weapons and UCAVS evolve, so do tanks. New APS systems, drone jammers etc.

 

[Joe Shearer]

How many tanks are there in Pakistan ?

Easy peasy. Mind you, this is in the frame of mind where an Army doesn't believe tank warfare.

Use your calculator, if you like:

1. Haider - 179
2. Al Khalid - 300
3. Al Khalid I - 110
4. T80UD - 320
5. Al Zarrar - 500
6. Type 85 - 268
7. Type 69 - 400
8. Type 59 - 600

 

[Lion]

doesnt matter...

the Ukraine war showed these are nothing more than magnets for drones and anti tank system. in the modern battlefield the tank has limited use... in fact Russian soldiers were using motor cycles to get around the battle field instead of armoured vehicles

Russia is the worst example to use given They threw out even the most basic concepts of what a tank is meant to be (infantry support) and sent them into an open environment one by one.

Now imagine if those tanks had proper support from other arms, or had modern APS systems and drone jammers?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Not that he needs me to stand up for him, but I can assure you that Joe knows what he’s talking about.

The Indian tank Arsenal and their Man-portable anti-tank Arsenal is significantly bigger than Pakistans. Pakistan does have significantly newer and better MBTs at the top end, but as a whole but PA has been very late to the induction of modern ATGMs and Gunships - we are playing catch up.

Thanks, chief.
It's just that we have these hyper-patriots butting in, and it is such an irritant.
The fact is that after dumping the Yanks, Pakistan has never managed to achieve what she had before - a fearful armoured service consisting of the latest and best tanks then in service.
Nevertheless, with all the restraints and restrictions, both the PA and the PAF have done brilliant jobs of taking what is possible and working to get the best bang for the buck within those constraints.

 

[Joe Shearer]

A Rough estimate is 2100 MBTs (Haider, AK-1, AK, UD, Type 85 and AZ) Excluding Active Type 59s/69s and Reserve Type 59/69s.

The IA fields roughly 3300 MBTs (T90S, T72 CIA, T72, Arjuns) excluding T72s in reserve.

Both sides have in excess of 400 more planned/On order.

Reasonably accurate. From published figures, the number should be 2677 for Pakistan. With the exclusions you have mentioned, 2100 is a very accurate figure.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Lion

Wouldn't tanks be sitting ducks for drones and all kinds of ground attack missiles, including dedicated anti tank ones?

Regards

Vulnerable, yes, but not sitting ducks.
'Every dog has its fleas
And every flea has further fleas...'
Even drones and ground attack missiles can be repelled or defeated before going into action.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Is there anything that can replace the organic fire support the tank provides?

Infantry Fighting Vehicles with ordnance greater than 105 mm., or the closely-related Infantry Fire Support Vehicle.
Armoured cars, in suitable terrain.
Ground effect vehicles (largely discredited by the world's military consensus) in unsuitable terrain.

 

[Joe Shearer]

To hold your land,you still need tanks

It's still the PBI, not tanks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you send in a tank or a formation of tanks alone into battle then yeah - anything will pick them off easily. That’s what we saw in Ukraine.

If you use proper combined arms doctrine where infantry, tanks, SHORADS, engineers, AD, gunships and Anti-tank infantry all travel together to support each other, then no, tanks are not sitting ducks.

Anything alone is going to fail - that’s the basic principle of combined arms. If you send infantry without armor cover they will fail, if you send UCAVs without ground support they will fail.

Pakistan and India have vast open terrain in the deserts and plains - there is no other effective way to cross it and take enemy land other than armor.

Anti-tank weapons and UCAVS evolve, so do tanks. New APS systems, drone jammers etc.

Really, your posts are the only reason to keep on reading this thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Panzerkiel is watching this thread, so I don't want to sadden him by saying anything stupid, but the fact is that concepts that were sound until even the Armenian-Azeri clashes are no longer as definitive as before,
The world's military thinking is going through a re-evaluation, and only time, and perhaps two or three regrettable but inevitable wars will give us the next normal.