PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Ak01]

So, every time some says that Pakistan could buy new build F16s, take a look at the above picture to remind you of why Pakistan won't take that risk again.

the US is in every right to not subsidise Pakistani arms procurements via its taxpayers yea, i dont think thats unreasonable at all.


Will you demand the chinese do the same?

 

[Ali_Baba]

once again, this is your misunderstanding of the situation.

Cash, i.e no fmf, no us taxpayer subsidy.

tax does not mean cold hard cash...loans are available...

Why didn't the PAA go down the route you are suggesting to get the AH-1Zs ? PAA sat on the issue for many many years before it decided to go for the Chinese platform.

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

2nd hand F16s that are cheap to procure and quick to deliver could make sense, but I still maintain that there is no way that the PAF is going to drop tens of billions of dollars on new build greenfield F16s at the "feet and whims" of congress over a period of a decade that it will take to deliver.

No change/reset in the relationship is going to be enough for that level of risk to be taken given that Pakistan has undergone multiple "resets" in it relationship with Washingtons, only for sanctions, restrictions and conditions to be added later and for pressure to applied "once some leverage" has been put in place that is effective. e.g. we will put your paid for F16s into storage if you don't sign on to the Abraham accords.

Pakistan has the ability to get its AH-1Z Vipers delivered if it pays for them in cash, but Pakistan has chosen to not do that and this seems be lost on the wiseguys of the F16 mafia here.

View attachment 165186

So, every time some says that Pakistan could buy new build F16s, take a look at the above picture to remind you of why Pakistan won't take that risk again.

Right now, the Iraqis are having problems trying to maintain their F16s, getting these 34 F16s for 50(or appropriate exchange ratio) JF17Cs on barter swap could make some sense where PAF can help Iraq maintain the JF17Cs and where they have experience with the engine of the JF17C already. The cashflows can be managed, and the delivery window can be managed to reduce risk. This is a possible logical permutation "if" Iraq wants to go down that road.

Take alook at this article : https://jummar.media/en/9209

These F16s can then be upgraded to whatever standard PAF wants, and they have alot of life left in them given how Iraq has not really used them. Out of all the "2nd" hand options out there, a barter swap for the Iraqi's ones are the "best value" for both parties involved. Nigeria has been able to maintain the JF17, as has Myanmar so it is possible for the Iraqi airforce to do the same.

So, there exists opportunities for out of the box thinking to procure 2nd hand F16s that can negate the risk of new build F16 procurement for sure. PAF will have the problem of cash flows to manage as the Americans will want any loans they provide, to be done on new builds and that is for Pakistan to solve for its alternative options.

the Pressler amendment was supposed to be about strategic leverage, but the outcome turned into a parody: from missiles to muffins or wheat!

forget air superiority, instead worry about wheat security!

wheat for f16s!

 

[Ali_Baba]

the US is in every right to not subsidise Pakistani arms procurements via its taxpayers yea, i dont think thats unreasonable at all.


Will you demand the chinese do the same?

Yes, the Chinese are as ruthless and predatory over sales as the Americans and everyone else.

The Americans have a better setup for weapons sales where they provide both the product, and the "financial services" to help buy the product. China does not have that at all, they want upfront hard cash in dollars(not their own currency but f-----g dollars while they want everyone else to "use" their currency). That is what Michael refers to as the "extra burden" of sales to the PAF as China does not provide financial services for countries to buy their military products the way that the USA does. That capability has a lot of advantages for ease of procurement and works for PAF alot for sure.

I have dealt with enough Chinese companies to know how they operate.

 

[Ali_Baba]

the Pressler amendment was supposed to be about strategic leverage, but the outcome turned into a parody: from missiles to muffins or wheat!

forget air superiority, instead worry about wheat security!

wheat for f16s!

Lets not forget about the Soybeans (bit of a big finger to Pakistan given Pakistan did not use/eat much in the way of soybeans)...

 

[东风夜放花千树]

Well, frankly, many people, including me, are perplexed by Trump II Presidency putting some 'balance' between India and Pakistan--a balance which virtually vanished after Bush Junior was replaced by Obama. For the last several months, I am not following why Trump's change of heart about Pakistan and India. People like Michael Kugelman were also baffled. I used to think Trump was giving minor concessions to Pakistan to coerce India into giving major concessions but I am not sure anymore.
Regardless of that, from browsing multiple Indian and Pakistan channels in last few days, it appears Pakistan has scored a major win with this F-16 deal.

This matter can be analyzed through Trump's actions.

Since taking office, Trump had a very favorable attitude toward Russia, stopped supporting Ukraine, called for Europe and Ukraine to negotiate a ceasefire, and agreed to Putin's territorial demands. When transferring Tomahawk missiles to Zelensky, Putin gave Trump a call, and then Trump changed his mind.

The U.S. proposed forming a G2 with China, but China rejected it.

Trump likes the strong and desires to stand with the strong.

Trump's invitations and cooperation included agreeing to sell F-16 parts and upgrades, imposing additional tariffs on India, and recognizing Pakistan's shooting down of eight aircraft. All of this happened after Pakistan won the war. On August 27, 2024, Pakistan test-fired a missile; on September 12, 2024, the U.S. imposed sanctions on missile suppliers to China and Pakistan (https://2021-2025.state.gov/transla...rs-to-pakistans-ballistic-missile-program-zh/).
On December 9, 2025, Pakistan successfully test-fired a 'Babur-3' submarine-launched cruise missile, and this time the U.S. did not impose any sanctions.

Therefore, to cooperate with Trump, you need to become strong. Pakistan proved itself through victory and also demonstrated that India's strength is a facade. Moreover, Pakistan exposed this facade to Trump.

 

[Princeps]

once again, this is your misunderstanding of the situation.

Cash, i.e no fmf, no us taxpayer subsidy.

tax does not mean cold hard cash...loans are available...

Were the turks willing to subsidize T-129s? and why was the engine blocked?

 

[Ak01]

Were the turks willing to subsidize T-129s? and why was the engine blocked?

The engine block isn’t some crazy secret.

Paa did not want to pay for Zulus without fmf. We decided against buying them.

T129s were selected, US denied export permits to a competitor. Literally nothing crazy nothing secret.
If the us was so uptight about exports to pak, why were GTs for Jinnah and Babur not blocked via turkey, and why were turbines for our helicopters not blocked either?

 

[RocketLaw]

Honestly, I think Pakistan should pay more attention to its old friends - Turkey and Saudi Arabia as they move toward new next-generation aircraft - F-35 A/B.

Pakistan should seek advice from these important partners and funding solutions (more loans and begging whatever it works) to receive more 30-40 F-35A/B ASAP while they should retire older grandpa F-16 aircrafts junk (Block 15/50 + Israeli-infested upgrade new offer), sell them all. And India will be shocked and worrisome, they wouldn't sleep well everyday.

December 12, 2025

Turkey's diplomatic discussions with the U.S. continue "on lifting sanctions and obstacles to the F-35 procurement and re-admitting our country to the programme," it said.

"Addressing the process regarding the F-35 project within the spirit of alliance, through mutual dialogue and constructive consultation, will contribute positively to bilateral relations," the ministry added.

Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan last week he believed Turkey and the U.S. would find a way to remove American sanctions "very soon".

Washington says the S-400s pose a threat to its F-35 fighter jets and to NATO's broader defence systems. Turkey rejects that and says the S-400s will not be integrated into NATO.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ussian-s-400s-amid-us-talks-f-35s-2025-12-12/


December 10, 2025

"In October, Turkey signed a deal to purchase 20 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets and plans to acquire more to replace its aging F-16 fleet while awaiting clarity on the possibility of obtaining F-35 aircraft. Turkey is also developing its own Kaan fighter jet, a decision accelerated by its removal from the F‑35 program.

“I hope the promises given will be fulfilled, and we will gain strong capabilities with the F-35s," Erdogan said in November, confirming talks were going in a positive direction, according to outlet Turkiye Today."

https://www.newsweek.com/us-sets-co...:text=In October, Turkey,outlet Turkiye Today.

 

[Meengla]

The U.S. proposed forming a G2 with China, but China rejected it.

Not sure why would China reject such proposal. I am hearing more about the Monroe Doctrine and the Spheres of Influence. A G-2 would give China dominance in the Pacific. We don't even hear much about the South China Sea islands. I tend to think Trump is taking America to the pre World War II era. The antagonism against China is greatly reduced and one can see that in NY Times pages which is complaining about how Trump is giving much to China.
I think the G-2 and the Spheres of Influence discussion are extremely important and should be discussed in a separate thread.

Therefore, to cooperate with Trump, you need to become strong. Pakistan proved itself through victory and also demonstrated that India's strength is a facade. Moreover, Pakistan exposed this facade to Trump.

Yes, Trump likes strength and machoism and on that Pakistan showed to him and the world that Pakistan is capable of standing up to a power several times stronger than Pakistan on May 2025. BUT... very soon after assuming the office in January 2025, Trump was already giving signs of warming up to Pakistan when he went out of his way to thank Pakistan in a major forum for nabbing the terrorist who killed the US Marines at the Kabul Airport in August 2021. Plus, IIRC, topmost US Generals were lavishing praise on Pakistan in front of Congressional leaders and that was before the May 2025 Pak-India conflict.

 

[Corax]

The engine block isn’t some crazy secret.

Paa did not want to pay for Zulus without fmf. We decided against buying them.

T129s were selected, US denied export permits to a competitor. Literally nothing crazy nothing secret.
If the us was so uptight about exports to pak, why were GTs for Jinnah and Babur not blocked via turkey, and why were turbines for our helicopters not blocked either?

So in other words the US will screw us over at the drop of a hat when it suits them. We're a moth to flame it seems.

 

[Ak01]

So in other words the US will screw us over at the drop of a hat when it suits them. We're a moth to flame it seems.

ah yes, everyone should forget their own interests and focus on ours amirite?

China, and the Turks do the same BTW. Why was the PAF only allowed to buy PL-15's with J-10s?

Why *should* the us help a competitor's sale?

 

[Ali_Baba]

I am going to very blunt here -
There is no need to convince someone who is already convinced.

More so, there is no need to point out what may or may not be understood by your enemy.

Pakistan landed its first F-16 in Jan 15th 1983.
On Jan 15th 2026 it will be 43 years - it scored its first kill in March 86 - 3 years

In those 43 years , how many hundreds of PAF F-16 pilots have flown?
How many have logged hours, tactics, strategies - quirks and behaviors specific to Pakistan’s environment from Skardu to Bholari.
From flying next to K2 in inclement weather specific to Pakistan to flying off Pakistani EEZ.

From recording the behavior of all the F-16 systems, and seeing both things it could do there and how best to use it.

Every base in the PAF has someone who knows the F-16 intimately and most bases have infrastructure to accommodate it.

From the thousands of maintenance and supply and staff folks who learnt how to keep it flying both when spares were plenty and when spares were not - in many ways Pakistan was given a pioneering lifecycle optimization plan for its aircraft.

Most importantly, learning how to keep it relevant and building expertise in house when no one would talk to you about it.

Evolving how to fight with it through the ages and absorbing BVR techniques faster than they would on any other airplane.

By comparison - for proponents of the JF-17 and J-10

First JF-17 flight to formal induction is nearly 7 years- formal induction in PaF is 2010 - so semi baked 22 years experience - now at multiple bases and familiarity. First JF-17 pool - mostly from the F-16. Time to first combat from official induction was about 2 years in 2010.

First J-10 flight with PAF- 3 years and 9 months. J-10 primary crew - top F-16 and JF-17 pilots

The F-16 isn’t done yet, people who have problems with the US can’t seem to figure out that the product doesn’t always have to take emotions from the creator.

Otherwise they would probably stop using half the internet and most of social media

For me, the issue isn't of not getting "more" F16s, it is the inherent risk in the procurement and delivery cycle of the new build F16s in themselves as well as the cost of new builds and the additional military capability it brings relative to the costs for new builds.

An approach of soaking up used mid-life F16s and upgrading them would make a lot of sense if the cost/capability and as you have highlighted supporting infrastructure ratio's can made such that procurements can be effective from the military advantage they provide relative to the capabilities of competing platforms and the procurements costs.

The ease of integration and deployment does have an economic value that can be expressed financially as part of the overall procurement decision. Ease of training, existing staff, existing processes and procedures, SOP development has a development cost associated with them that can feed into the equation and I can imagine that there is a corner somewhere in AHQ that has the right calibre of bean-counters who are doing all this. Given the fleet and capability PAF operates relative to its budget, I do think PAF has the best bean-counters in the world, maybe better than their fighter pilot jockeys.

if you want an outsized miliary capability gap advantage relative to your opponent, then that may well cost as little more, e.g. the J-35A where the advantage over a non-stealth is so large that the cost of the new infrastructure, SOP, and people training is worth paying the cost. The cost/capability ratio(where cost includes SOPs, Infra etc) of the J-35A may well be in excess of new build F16Vs. The PAF may well(once again, speculative thought on my part) or not decide that the military advantage is worth the cost and they are "prepared" to take the risk of being a "first adopter" of a new platform to iron out the bugs for the capability it brings to the table.

If PAF could adopt the Mirage procurement approach for F16s, then there is a lot of value that can be had there for sure. I have highlighted what to me feels like low hanging fruit in terms of Iraq : https://defencepk.com/forums/threads/paf-f-16-discussions.35/post-1057487. If Pakistan's relations with the USA are as good now as people claim/suggest, and the bridge can be built with Iraq on helping them with their issues that PAF can do, and then a possible solution exists from my narrow view of the world for very young F16s that can be upgraded and added to the fleet.

 

[Corax]

ah yes, everyone should forget their own interests and focus on ours amirite?

China, and the Turks do the same BTW. Why was the PAF only allowed to buy PL-15's with J-10s?

Why *should* the us help a competitor's sale?

I don't disagree with you, the Turks and Chinese will look after their interests too. But the Turks and Chinese have never placed sanctions on Pakistan as far as I'm aware, of course the Chinese will not give their high end stuff, like the J20, and the PAF won't be stupid stupid enough to ask for something like that. How do we know the PAF was only allowed PL15 with J10? I'm sure I've seen the PAF show the PL15 on Thunders. Maybe it's an avionics compatibility issue, given the similar architecture in Block 3 Thunders and J10Cs? Wasn't the PAF looking to acquire the J10 anyway, or are you implying the Chinese forced it down the throat of PAF?

 

[RocketLaw]

Obviously, this has to do with India pressure from US.

Keep in mind that new administration could come in 2028 and will cancel any new upgrade offers for Pakistan - same cycle repeating again since 1980s - delaying, delaying, and postponing.

Pakistan - please fix the ECONOMY first and then show more strength, not begging anymore.

​

Is the US applying pressure to India?​

Yes, for a couple of reasons.

The US approval for Pakistan’s F-16 upgrade comes as the Trump administration presses India to buy more weapons from it.

In August, New Delhi put its plans to buy US weapons and aircraft on hold, the Reuters news agency reported, quoting three unnamed Indian officials familiar with the matter.

This came just weeks before Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had been scheduled to visit Washington to announce some weapon purchases. That visit was cancelled.

India-US relations have also been tense in recent months.

On August 6, Trump imposed an additional 25 percent tariff on imports from India as a punishment for buying cheap Russian crude oil. This was on top of the existing 25 percent tariff already levied on Indian goods, bringing the total levy on Indian imports to 50 percent.

Michael Kugelman, a South Asia analyst based in Washington, DC, told Al Jazeera: “I wouldn’t overstate the India angle here. Certainly one may look at this deal as the latest attempt by Washington to use its largesse to Pakistan as a pressure point to get India to make more concessions to the US in trade talks.”


https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025...-f-16-upgrade-for-pakistan-a-message-to-india