PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Signalian]

they'll have to fight more F-35s in one conflict than the PAF would ever see in India.

Doubt that. Chinese supplied weaponry has more chances of seeing combat through other countries than China itself. Same in case of J-31. PAF fielding it earlier and more in combat against IAF than China fielding it in combat against IAF, Taiwan, JSDF or USAF.

 

[SaadH]

Well, let China certify WS-19 and then we can discuss. Even then, given Pakistan is likely to be the only major customer and even China is not going to induct J-31 in numbers, I doubt we will ever know the reality. With Pakistan, unfortunately, its more of a compulsion now.

That being said, I have my doubts that "one or two years" timeline that some posts were mentioning.

It's a matter of economics and geopolitical positioning, except for american systems and for their inherent tech superiority and power projection, every other nation has struggled to sell their wares.

Rafale took the longest time to win foreign orders and once Egypt/Qatar opted in, there was a bit of a deluge, otherwise no one was buying Rafale a decade after it's availability. Same goes with Grippen, which is pretty much a failure in overseas sales. Even Russia a perennial supplier to the third world, has struggled to sell it's latest offering be they Mig-35, SU-35 or even SU-57.

Countries are just not spending the same amounts on fighter jet acquisitions has they had been in the previous decades, rather opting for upgrading or outright downsizing their airforces. Most client states opt to go to their master nations for fighter jets. Being a late comer to great power status, China only has a few true client states in it's sphere of influences. Pakistan has long been a Chinese satrap and has accordingly opted for Chinese jets on a regular basis.

 

[Signalian]

It's not the 5th gen I'm super worried about, it's 6th gen and beyond. India's economy is going to eventually get so large that they will be able to instantly buy their way into getting advanced tech before Pakistan even has a chance to even think about what it would cost.

Unless Pakistan fixes its economy, India's already massive economic advantage is going to lead to a massive Indian tech and mil advantage.

You don't get it. Would you have expected J-31 news from CAS while only one squadron of J-10 has been raised ?
Pakistan has finance options through China, while India has to throw billions of USD upfront for Rafale or in a rare scenario it may get some aid package from USA. This is because China sits at India's north as its foe and will be willing to arm Pakistan to the teeth, if required, against India, while Europe (France-Rafale) has no such interest except business. The aid package from USA to india is debatable.

 

[mdmm55]

Kindly place your worthy decent positive comments on following linked news that
Pakistan negotiating to buy J-31 Jet fighters from China.
1-

2- Pakistan is Getting J31 from China...Alpha Defence.India

3-Indian Defence Newsakistan Going to Buy J-31 From China,M-30 Hybrid Engine for Indian NG-Destroyer

4-China Will Provide J-31 Stealth Fighter Aircraft Similar to F-35 to Pakistan By Pak Defense

 

[Signalian]

While I am for the most part, optimistic about the open architecture nature of Chinese platforms sharing the same databus protocol with NATO/Turkish systems, enabling continuous modular improvement, in this instance I don’t think Turkish weapons can find their way onto FC/JF-31 specifically.

For 5th gen aircraft, BVR missiles have lot more requirements and interactions with the airframe itself, so much so that missile sometimes need deliberate design alterations to meet the needs of stealth aircraft.

One rarely talked about advantage of 5th gen aircraft over 4th gen is the ability to launch missiles in far greater ranges of flight envelope, specifically in high G-load and supersonic speed ranges. Unlike 4th gen fighters that, despite their maximum speeds often exceeding mach 2, are usually still restricted to subsonic speed ranges during most of their combat maneuvers, especially when launching their missiles. This is in contrary to 5th gen aircraft, which as set by F-22’s example, seeks to possess advantage over 4th gen also in BVR agility and flexibility, able to have more windows of attack while possessing greater energy in evading incoming missile, reducing probability of kill.

This means the munition bays of a stealth aircraft have to be designed in conjunction of its intended armament, to not just release, but purposefully eject the missile out of the munition bay to avoid aerodynamic interference and risk of collision, which means trying to accommodate new missiles of different origin into the internal bays of FC-31 is more costly and complicated than say, JF-17 or J-10CP.

Moreover, newer advanced 5th gen projects like F-35 and J-20 also sports the introduction of EODAS, which allows for 360 degrees attack via BVR missile in completely novel guidance and navigation modes. While I’m not sure if the export FC-31 will sport this feature, it is something that I don’t think turkish missiles are ready for yet.

The point is standardization of a weapons platform, like the JF-17. A mainstay platform of PAF in the furture, which could possibly be J-31.

So the questions are raised:
1. How much freedom will PAF get to modify it as it modifies every aircraft to suit its own needs.

2. This is where the weaponry package comes in. Chinese weaponry obviously but will the computer architecture be open to adopt turkish or western or even local weaponry ? PAF now makes local weapons.

3. Upgrades in blocks or versions as per Chinese allowable limits or as PAF usually sets its own milestones like that of JFT and maybe in future for J-10.

 

[VersusChristi]

You don't get it. Would you have expected J-31 news from CAS while only one squadron of J-10 has been raised ?
Pakistan has finance options through China, while India has to throw billions of USD upfront for Rafale or in a rare scenario it may get some aid package from USA. This is because China sits at India's north as its foe and will be willing to arm Pakistan to the teeth, if required, against India, while Europe (France-Rafale) has no such interest except business. The aid package from USA to india is debatable.

heh...

Last time, USA showed largesse on Pakistan's arsenal. The price Pakistan paid was phenomenal. Most of it was because of the way Pakistan conducts its business.

Then came CPEC and the story repeated.

Now its more Chinese weapons.

There is still one truth in all of it : there are no friends nor free lunches among nations in this world. China will extract a massive price from Pakistan. And yes, China can also prove to be a unreliable partner depending upon how things are at that moment. If some interest group in Pakistan were pro-America at the wrong time, you will see a replay of Pressler. Largesse is after all dependent upon the mind of giver and not the needs of the reciever.

No matter whoever comes and whatever they give or do for you, the single constant Pakistan will remain in this equation. If you want to make this equation favourable, you will have to make that constant favourable.

 

[Signalian]

There is still one truth in all of it : there are no friends nor free lunches among nations in this world. China will extract a massive price from Pakistan.

That is nothing when compared to readiness and availability of a weapons system. There is already a massive Chinese investment in Pakistan through hundreds of projects.

India still stands at a loss.

 

[That_Guy]

You don't get it. Would you have expected J-31 news from CAS while only one squadron of J-10 has been raised ?
Pakistan has finance options through China, while India has to throw billions of USD upfront for Rafale or in a rare scenario it may get some aid package from USA. This is because China sits at India's north as its foe and will be willing to arm Pakistan to the teeth, if required, against India, while Europe (France-Rafale) has no such interest except business. The aid package from USA to india is debatable.

I get it.

We're not talking about right now, we're talking about in the future. I mentioned that this is a future concern.

Also, getting low interest loans to finance Pakistan's defense needs is not the solution. Pakistan needs to fix its economy first and foremost, as maintenance will be 100% on PAF to get done, and this would not be done with loans.

 

[VersusChristi]

It's a matter of economics and geopolitical positioning, except for american systems and for their inherent tech superiority and power projection, every other nation has struggled to sell their wares.

Russia. Israel. France. Italy. All of them have supplied weapons platforms and components which form the top tier of a number of countries forces. Pakistan Navy for quite sometime had operated French Sub as unmatched tool of naval dominance. India had operated Russian hardware likewise. We both have operated French planes as preferred platforms for A2G roles, to the point it is still considered prudent to buy few more of them even if they are second hand. India's top level avionics or sensors is Israeli. Italian Radars have been used in quite a few platforms.

In front of this, Chinese platforms -- those which are fully Chinese -- had been minuscule compared to the size of economy that China is. Same with Chinese components.

 

[VersusChristi]

That is nothing when compared to readiness and availability of a weapons system. There is already a massive Chinese investment in Pakistan through hundreds of projects.

India still stands at a loss.

So lets say there is a conflict on going and your J-10s need a specific radar modules to be replaced. At the same time, your relationship with China is not going well because you got some nice deals from USA or the power that be got some nice deal from USA. China decides to delay shipping those modules to teach you a lesson, bringing availability down. You have ZERO say in this now because its not like that you can replace Chinese jets with something else. The jets you need are not available, for the price point or purchase payment terms that you can offer, from any one else but China.

This is what can happen. You induct weapons that are dependent upon good will of China, the weapons that you can not replace, you basically have to keep yourself in good books of China always.

What if tomorrow China has a conflict with someone in middle east and wants to use Pakistan as a staging ground? Will you like to play the same role as you did in Afghan war?

 

[hussain0216]

It's not the 5th gen I'm super worried about, it's 6th gen and beyond. India's economy is going to eventually get so large that they will be able to instantly buy their way into getting advanced tech before Pakistan even has a chance to even think about what it would cost.

Unless Pakistan fixes its economy, India's already massive economic advantage is going to lead to a massive Indian tech and mil advantage.

Our establishment has screwed around enough

There needs to be a ramping up of the economy and a sound economic policy put in place, if we have paused democracy anyway then we don't have to worry about short term fall out and need to now really work on the economy

The Hindu enemy is not something we can ignore, we got lucky with China being on our border with India and both those countries having problems of their own which we can take advantage of

 

[MastanKhan]

F31. Awesome.

CATIC is not going to share everything with (respectfully) some rando at an airshow.

Hi,

My experience---people love to talk---specially the underdog---.

And pilots---they love to strut around---.

 

[Signalian]

I get it.

We're not talking about right now, we're talking about in the future. I mentioned that this is a future concern.

Also, getting low interest loans to finance Pakistan's defense needs is not the solution. Pakistan needs to fix its economy first and foremost, as maintenance will be 100% on PAF to get done, and this would not be done with loans.

Okay.

I might be going off topic on this, so apologies to mod team (please warn if i over step). The economy in Pakistan has two sides. Military economy and civilian economy. The military leads in its R&D, procurement, diversification and modernization. You can see the influx of weapons in past 5 years or so even with a dwindling economy. So, Pakistan's economy doesnt really affect weapon procurement for Pakistani military, be it 6th gen fighter or 8th gen fighter.

On the other hand, you are comparing Indian economy to Pakistan's (civil Govt) economy. Two aspects here:
1. How much procurement in terms of modernization and technological leaps have civil areas progressed be it industry, infrastructure, machinery etc.

2. How much R&D has civil side progressed through public universities in all sectors where economy can be flourished.

 

[Quwa]

Just going to say, @MastanKhan leaves for a little bit, and suddenly PAF be ordering J-31s, new Erieye-ERs, Bayraktar UCAVs, and so on.

 

[air marshal]