PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

What will be Pakistan's contribution in the project ?

None

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Why would India join anything when AMCA already exists

Only in drawing board

 

[Barcid]

Only in drawing board

We are not inducting a 5th gen today, are we?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

We are not inducting a 5th gen today, are we?

Yeah your AMCA will be inducted in or after 2035

 

[Barcid]

Yeah your AMCA will be inducted in or after 2035

Yeah, so?

 

[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Yeah, so?

We will have j31 much earlier than your AMCA

 

[Barcid]

We will have j31 much earlier than your AMCA

Congratulations

 

[Dreamer]

We will have j31 much earlier than your AMCA

No need to be cocky and no need to count your chickens before they've hatched.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You don't seem like a serious aviation enthusiast. Saying the KAAN and the J-31 are the same is about as accurate as saying the F-15 and the F-18 are "absolutely same". Its two different class of fighters. A simple side by side would show you they are completely different dimensions. Not to mention the J-31 as of right now is a naval aircraft, we haven't seen the Air Force version b/c China isn't planning on inducting it, and instead building J-20s in mass.

The sooner you send the more of the Indian trolls to your ignore list the easier your life will be in this forum.....

 

[hyperman]

I don't think the early Block 15s will have enough airframe life left in them to be worth upgrading to either V standard (assuming the US even allows it) or the Turkish Ozgur version, maybe the 18 or so Block 52 Vipers, but in any case, it would require US approval for both V and Ozgur upgrades. The J-10CE is essentially a hedge in lieu of upgrading the Vipers.

I think the J-35 will become a multirole platform, and the KAAN the 'high' end air superiority platform. An outlier remains the domestic 'Azm' programme, but in my view this will be scaled down from a heavyweight twin engine platform to a single engine platform with the option of an unmanned version to act as a loyal wingman, if the announcements of collaborating with Turkey are anything to go by. A cheaper single engine NGF type may end up being the backbone to replace the JF-17 in large numbers.

You would be surprised, The Turks have done life extensions on their F-16s, Turkey used to license produce F-16s inside Turkey so they have extensive experience with the aircraft, from what was described to me, they essentially stripped down the entire aircraft and rebuilt it with replacement parts for worn out things they produced in house. A very extensive refurbishment, flight life was more than doubled.

With regards to the upgrades, maybe for the V upgrades you would require US help, but Ozgur is basically a reengineered Turkish F-16, with only the engine not replaced with a domestic alternative, all the avionics are Turkish, Idk about the legality, but if there was a ToT deal with Turkey, you might be able to do the upgrades yourself in Pakistan.

As for Azm, I think they will just buy the J-31 and call it Azm. lol, it either that or some sort of drone/loyal wingman like Kizilelma. I don't see Pakistan building a whole aircraft plus buy J-31s and KAAN. The money is just too much And frankly not worth it, people pushing this thing are chasing prestige more than smart decision making, Pakistan has more pressing defense needs than pushing to build the aircraft, money would be better spent building out the munitions catalogue, and sensors, among other things.

 

[hyperman]

None of the treaty allies minus UK and France have nukes. India has nukes and yet has all the privileges of non-nuclear treaty allies

uhh.. no it doesn't. Seriously the people here are delusional, you aren't getting F-35, while being besties with Russia. Its too much a security issue. For anything like that to happen, there would be a significant change in Indian geopolitical alignment, and I just don't see it, Indian always tries to play things down the middle or tries to be neutral.

 

[Qureshi]

Can we all cut this crap "AMCA or other Indian options" & stick on topic, please.

 

[GriffinsRule]

tbh, I think the J-31/35 and KAAN could solve different problems.

The KAAN is larger than the J-31/35 (e.g., uses two GE F110s) and, based on how TAI's configuring it, shaping up with more of a strike-centric role (e.g., EOTS). This makes sense because since the TuAF lost access to the F-35, they've needed their NGFA to be more suitable for strike. It might be why the TuAF went for a larger design with the KAAN (30-35 tons) needing two GE F110s rather than a single-engine F110 design or twin F404 platform (21-27 tons).

So, to the PAF, the KAAN could make for a really good strike platform (directly replacing the Mirage III/5s in the role). OTOH, I view the J-31/35 as more of a general workhorse fighter.

SAC is designing the J-35 with the PLAN's needs in mind, so I imagine it'd need a good balance of air-to-air and air-to-surface capabilities. It should also be scalable, so SAC will work to control production and long-term maintenance/operating costs.

Finally, China has a strategic interest in the J-35 (for the PLAN's needs), so there's a guaranteed, hefty order book to initiate scale (and lower unit costs). I also think other countries have quietly committed to the J-31/35, like Egypt, Algeria, KSA, or others. Besides waiting for the KAAN, there is no other NGFA option for anyone outside of the West. So, the launching order book of the J-31/35 will likely be the best of any Chinese aircraft in history given that the jet is the only solution for an urgent and wide-scale problem (lack of NGFAs). In other words, the unit price promised by AVIC is likely pretty good and the PAF didn't want to miss out.

So, the question to ask is, why would the PAF need a medium-weight, multirole NGFA? Well, its older F-16A/Bs (i.e., the current medium-weight, multirole fighter) are aging and will reach their OEM-defined lifespans by 2040. The J-31/35 would likely replace the Peace Gate I/II Falcons.

That said, from 2040, I can see the PAF giving the KAAN a serious look, but as a specialized asset for the strike role. The KAAN is bigger and, potentially, a future block (ideally the one with the TR Motor engines) will have a bigger internal payload, better sensors for surface tracking/targeting (e.g., an improved EOTS, a high-powered AESA radar with really good SAR/GMTI, etc).

The PAF had wanted a genuine strike platform for decades - from A-7 Corsair II in the 1970s to the M2K-5 in the 1990s. It's been elusive for one reason or another, but the KAAN is shaping up to being that type of platform.

For me, the bigger question is what happens to the PAF's tactical fighter element as it evolves into a next-gen air force. Be it KAAN or J-31/35, the stealth NGFAs are strategically valuable as conventional deterrents (excellent air-to-surface and air-to-air), but they're high cost, not just from a procurement standpoint, but operational too. You're not flying any of those as frequently and aggressively as the JF-17 or even the F-16.

The PAF can't afford to treat air power as a luxury, so it needs a "beater" like the JF-17 to drive the bulk of tactical operations. Now, I wonder if this "next gen air force" has a place for a fighter like the JF-17 in the future. Would the PAF develop another lightweight tactical fighter like the JF-17 (e.g., single engine, but relaxed stability, built around AESA radar, composites, etc)? Or, is this why the PAF ordered the J-10CE? @Oscar @arslank01 @Qureshi @Deino

Pakistan always had a two tier AF since the 70s. Upper/lower tier mixes like Mirages/Sabres; F-16/F-6 & others etc.
We are in the transition phase ATM where a lot of the fleet mix is now in favor of upper tier jets, which have traditionally been the tip of the spear and fewer in numbers, mostly due to the highly capable JF-17s and upgrades F-16s. The best aircraft still number less than 60 though as in J-10s, JF-17 IIIs, and Block 52s.
The future state will be no different either, just the shift to better but fewer NGF aircraft in the top tier and all 4-4.5gen below those sometime in the mid to late 2030s.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Bro, the only way you're (PAF) is getting its hands on Block 70/72s' is by...
a. Accepting !srael.
b. Making Peace with !ndia.
c. Cutting of relations with China (indirectly).
d. Attacking Iran - on demand.
e. Giving space for Drones within Pak*

*something that might already be in the pipeline.

Oh & whatever Vipers you do get, will come with infamous..., or notorious: End-User Agreement

Trust me, you can attempt to break their arm in all the twisting, but the US won't even let you buy the (used) F-16's parked in Nevada.

SAAB Gripen: Same old story with US Engines.
Dassualt Rafales: Camp India
EuroFighter Typhoon: Some drama or the other.

At the moment, PAF's best & safer bet is China, be it J-10C, PL-15 & whatever swings our way in the not-so-distant-future.

I'd also say that block 70/72s are cost prohibitive even if taking the upgrade route (which makes little sense for Block 15s). Better to buy J-10s for the same of less and similar or better capabilities.

 

[GriffinsRule]

PAF is fielding J31/J35 variant by 2027. accelerated acquisition due to rapidly changing global situation... There will be perpetual war in next decade... and global economic meltdown will happen by 2035 - 2040...

I guess Pakistan is a decade ahead then the rest of the world when it comes to economic meltdown