Pakistan Rocket Force Command News and Discussions

[HAIDER]

I personally disagree on this point.
But, if we are to discuss this issue, further official information is needed. Otherwise, this debate is meaningless.

Some Pakistani friends and I often argue about the issue of "defense independence." This stems from the fact that our two cultures have completely different definitions of "defense independence."

As I've said before, neither India nor Pakistan can completely and 100% independently produce a single, qualified bullet for a modern assault rifle. This is based on China's understanding of "defense independence," not Pakistan's standards. This is not meant to disparage India and Pakistan. In fact, 99% of countries worldwide cannot achieve this. ------ If you break down the industrial capacity required to produce a bullet, you'll find a lot of secrets.
============================
In the 1950s, after the Korean War, China began developing strategic weapons. At the time, a large number of soldiers returning from the Korean War were sent directly to northwest China. Simultaneously, the Chinese government recruited scientists and technicians nationwide. This formed the Second Artillery Corps, the predecessor of the PLARF.

According to statistics, millions of soldiers and technicians were directly involved in these projects, and over 10 million were indirectly involved. However, the PLARF now has only a little over 100,000 personnel.

After investing enormous resources in developing these strategic military projects, the Chinese government has continuously translated these achievements into civilian applications. These transformations have played a significant role in China's large, state-owned enterprises, renowned universities, and renowned infrastructure projects.

It's no exaggeration to say that any of China's major achievements today can be attributed to these individuals.

no embarrassment ...agreed ....Chinese perceive objectives thorough the lens of sole existence and nationalism .. One China concept

 

[JamD]

I personally disagree on this point.
But, if we are to discuss this issue, further official information is needed. Otherwise, this debate is meaningless.

Some Pakistani friends and I often argue about the issue of "Independent defense industry." This stems from the fact that our two cultures have completely different definitions of "Independent defense industry."

As I've said before, neither India nor Pakistan can completely and 100% independently produce a single, qualified bullet for a modern assault rifle. This is based on China's understanding of "Independent defense industry," not Pakistan's standards. This is not meant to disparage India and Pakistan. In fact, 99% of countries worldwide cannot achieve this. ------ If you break down the industrial capacity required to produce a bullet, you'll find a lot of secrets.
============================
In the 1950s, after the Korean War, China began developing strategic weapons. At the time, a large number of soldiers returning from the Korean War were sent directly to northwest China. Simultaneously, the Chinese government recruited scientists and technicians nationwide. This formed the Second Artillery Corps, the predecessor of the PLARF.

According to statistics, millions of soldiers and technicians were directly involved in these projects, and over 10 million were indirectly involved. However, the PLARF now has only a little over 100,000 personnel.

After investing enormous resources in developing these strategic military projects, the Chinese government has continuously translated these achievements into civilian applications. These transformations have played a significant role in China's large, state-owned enterprises, renowned universities, and renowned infrastructure projects.

It's no exaggeration to say that any of China's major achievements today can be attributed to these individuals.

Oh I am not at all suggesting that industrialization for Pakistan means making everything indigenously. I am quite aware of our limitations and no one can hope to match China's industry. What I mean by industrial capacity is the ability to produce let's say 30 cruise missiles per year. I really don't care where the inputs are coming from as long as they are reliable enough for the line to keep running. And from what I know of our capacity we are design heavy and production light. Our SOEs have very limited ability to mass produce advanced munitions. Places like Qaswa are half measures to try to fix this deficiency in fact.

 

[AeroTech]

Oh I am not at all suggesting that industrialization for Pakistan means making everything indigenously. I am quite aware of our limitations and no one can hope to match China's industry. What I mean by industrial capacity is the ability to produce let's say 30 cruise missiles per year. I really don't care where the inputs are coming from as long as they are reliable enough for the line to keep running. And from what I know of our capacity we are design heavy and production light. Our SOEs have very limited ability to mass produce advanced munitions. Places like Qaswa are half measures to try to fix this deficiency in fact.

Correct point again.

Under the existing structures, the production rates just can't be increased. There are limitations upon limitations.

The whole ecosystem of SPD is suited to produce very few missiles that are nuke tipped and grant an assured capacity to nuke India. That, SPD has achieved through Nescom, NDC, etc. From the day one, the ecosystem never had the capacities for mass production.

I keep on saying 'ecosystem' so that our friends here understand that this took years if not decades to establish (bcz of all sorts of constraints). And a new ecosystem for mass production just can't be propped up out of thin air. (Say, in say 2-4 years).

This will take a complete strategy shift, a huge allocation of resources, and quite a lot of time.

 

[HRK]

Don t understand why need it , when Musharraf already form strategic command and control a separate wing for missile operation unit and nuclear strike force wing.

Due to the needs which come into play after 2015.

 

[HRK]

Correct point again.

Under the existing structures, the production rates just can't be increased. There are limitations upon limitations.

The whole ecosystem of SPD is suited to produce very few missiles that are nuke tipped and grant an assured capacity to nuke India. That, SPD has achieved through Nescom, NDC, etc. From the day one, the ecosystem never had the capacities for mass production.

I keep on saying 'ecosystem' so that our friends here understand that this took years if not decades to establish (bcz of all sorts of constraints). And a new ecosystem for mass production just can't be propped up out of thin air. (Say, in say 2-4 years).

This will take a complete strategy shift, a huge allocation of resources, and quite a lot of time.

This is a known fact .... as previously we were not supposed to have missiles in thousands of number due the previous strategy as you mentioned but now needs are changed so is the strategy. This will obviously force the circles to increase the production capacity.

My only fear is that they will prefer the SOEs for enhanced production which in short term might seems logical but would fail in longer run the only solution which could address our needs is to involve private sectors with assistance of state particularly in matters related to outsourcing of already available technologies and security issues

@JamD ....

 

[AeroTech]

This is a known fact .... as previously we were not supposed to have missiles in thousands of number due the previous strategy as you mentioned but now needs are changed so is the strategy. This will obviously force the circles to increase the production capacity.

My only fear is that they will prefer the SOEs for enhanced production which in short term might seems logical but would fail in longer run the only solution which could address our needs is to involve private sectors with assistance of state particularly in matters related to outsourcing of already available technologies and security issues

@JamD ....

At the moment, the only options are the SOEs.

Increasing the involvement of the private sector would be a step in the right direction but the results would be severely limited by the fact that the bulk (yes, the bulk) of critical technologies are still imported/smuggled through complex channels/work arounds.

What good it is if we ask a private setup to produce outer structures for lets say 200 missiles, but the main components, electronics modules, fuel/pneumatic systems, guidance systems, control systems, etc all have to be smuggled through complex channels which we can do for lets say just 30 odd missiles in that period/fiscal year? Bcz all this secret smuggling/importing can't be done by a private business owner, the state must be involved. So our production rates are capped again.

We could have much easily transferred production to private entities had we achieved indigenization of core technologies in house. We are still ancient when it comes to that. 'China say mangwa lo' culture has proven a doubled edged sword. We were never forced to make things in-house (like Iran was) and now we're super dependent on the Chinese for everything.

So there are multiple layers of headaches to be had before we can think of real improvements and significant capacity enhancement.

On the other hand, raising a new 'Rocket Force Command', employing new generals and their entourages, and doing other cosmetic steps is quite easier and has more PR points.

 

[Foxhound]

Pakistan's new rocket force in a way that's easy to understand.

What's the big idea?

Imagine a football team. Before, the strikers, midfielders, and defenders all had their own coaches, and they'd often be shouting instructions at the same time. This new "Army Rocket Force Command" is like creating a single, dedicated rocket team with its own head coach. Their whole job is to manage all the rockets and missiles, from the smaller ones to the big ones, and make sure they work together perfectly.

The old way was a bit scattered, with different branches of the military handling their own bits and pieces. Now, by bringing everything under one roof, Pakistan is trying to make its military more streamlined and effective.

What are the benefits?

Faster and more accurate:

By centralising everything, they can connect intelligence from things like drones and radar directly to the people launching the rockets. This means they can spot a target and hit it much, much quicker than before. Think of it as a super-fast "sensor-to-shooter" loop.

A bigger bang for their buck:

They can now coordinate multiple rocket launches from different directions all at once. This creates a powerful, overwhelming attack that's designed to punch through an enemy's air defences, making it a real nightmare to stop.

More flexible options:

This new force gives Pakistan's leaders more choices in a crisis. They can use these conventional, non-nuclear rockets to send a strong signal without having to immediately resort to using their air force or, even more seriously, their nuclear weapons. It's about having a range of options for different situations.

Learning from past lessons:

This move seems to be a direct response to a recent conflict with India, where Pakistan's military felt its existing systems weren't as effective as they could have been. They're trying to fix those gaps and make sure they're not caught off guard again.

What message does it send to its enemies?

In short, it's a very clear message: "We're serious, we're organised, and we're ready."

A message to India:

This is a big part of it. The new force is a way for Pakistan to show India that it's building up its conventional fighting power, specifically in a way that can hit key targets deep inside Indian territory. It's a way of saying, "If you attack us, we can strike back with precision and power."

A message of deterrence:

The main point is to deter a potential enemy from attacking in the first place. The idea is that the threat of a swift, powerful, and overwhelming rocket barrage is enough to make an opponent think twice about starting a conflict.

A nod to China:

The new force is reportedly modelled on China's People's Liberation Army Rocket Force. This sends a signal that Pakistan is aligning itself closely with its key ally, and is adopting a modern, sophisticated approach to its military. It shows that Pakistan isn't just buying weapons, but also learning from and integrating with a major global power.

Please note, It's not just about a new command structure; it's built on decades of experience.

Pakistan's journey with missiles and rockets goes way back to the 1960s. They were one of the first countries in Asia to establish a space agency, and they started launching their own sounding rockets in the early days. This early experience, along with consistent efforts, has given them a deep understanding of rocketry.

Despite facing sanctions and having to work with limited resources, they've shown a remarkable ability to develop their own missile systems. This "do-it-yourself" spirit, often with significant help from countries like China, means that they have a strong domestic manufacturing base. They're not just buying off-the-shelf weapons; they're actively involved in building and improving them. This is a crucial point because it means they can tailor their missiles to their own specific needs and aren't completely dependent on outside suppliers.

So, while they may not have the vast industrial capacity of a global superpower, they have shown that they are a "force to be reckoned with."

They've proven their ability to innovate and produce a range of rockets and missiles, from short-range tactical ones to long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads.

This new rocket force, therefore, isn't just a shiny new toy. It's the culmination of years of hard work, experience, and a stubborn refusal to be left behind. It sends a message that Pakistan is not only capable of a powerful, unified response, but it has the homegrown expertise to sustain it.

Pakistan needs to enhance its psychological warfare, convey overtly or covertly into the enemy nations Psyche of its Government ministers, military personnel and it's population - the reason is it will give them time to consider any foolhardiness from them.

In addition, Pakistan needs to convey seriously its resolve and it's capabilities to inflict significant damage to its enemies - this will eventually help with deterrence!

If you want PEACE then prepare for WAR!!!

 

[mythbuster]

Correct point again.

Under the existing structures, the production rates just can't be increased. There are limitations upon limitations.

The whole ecosystem of SPD is suited to produce very few missiles that are nuke tipped and grant an assured capacity to nuke India. That, SPD has achieved through Nescom, NDC, etc. From the day one, the ecosystem never had the capacities for mass production.

I keep on saying 'ecosystem' so that our friends here understand that this took years if not decades to establish (bcz of all sorts of constraints). And a new ecosystem for mass production just can't be propped up out of thin air. (Say, in say 2-4 years).

This will take a complete strategy shift, a huge allocation of resources, and quite a lot of time.

You are ruling out any chance of incremental improvements in the system and setups..... that's depressing.

 

[r3alist]

Correct point again.

Under the existing structures, the production rates just can't be increased. There are limitations upon limitations.

The whole ecosystem of SPD is suited to produce very few missiles that are nuke tipped and grant an assured capacity to nuke India. That, SPD has achieved through Nescom, NDC, etc. From the day one, the ecosystem never had the capacities for mass production.

I keep on saying 'ecosystem' so that our friends here understand that this took years if not decades to establish (bcz of all sorts of constraints). And a new ecosystem for mass production just can't be propped up out of thin air. (Say, in say 2-4 years).

This will take a complete strategy shift, a huge allocation of resources, and quite a lot of time.

I think all you really mean here is depth and level of human development as an average across the country.

Many of these constraints will simply be human capacity, and it will apply across civilian and non civilian endeavors, Pakistan and indeed India are 2 cases where human development at its lowest level is far far too low, not only does that reduce the pool but it also creates a hurdle

If you want to talk ecosystem then read a few posts above from @Michael
On the sub industries you need to produce a bullet, you can develop all of these other industries when the floor has been lifted for everyone


That being said, the slice of the armed forces which still have a high level of capability, resources and acumen must still push ahead to stay credible and potent.

 

[mythbuster]

Pakistan's new rocket force in a way that's easy to understand.

What's the big idea?

Imagine a football team. Before, the strikers, midfielders, and defenders all had their own coaches, and they'd often be shouting instructions at the same time. This new "Army Rocket Force Command" is like creating a single, dedicated rocket team with its own head coach. Their whole job is to manage all the rockets and missiles, from the smaller ones to the big ones, and make sure they work together perfectly.

The old way was a bit scattered, with different branches of the military handling their own bits and pieces. Now, by bringing everything under one roof, Pakistan is trying to make its military more streamlined and effective.

What are the benefits?

Faster and more accurate:

By centralising everything, they can connect intelligence from things like drones and radar directly to the people launching the rockets. This means they can spot a target and hit it much, much quicker than before. Think of it as a super-fast "sensor-to-shooter" loop.

A bigger bang for their buck:

They can now coordinate multiple rocket launches from different directions all at once. This creates a powerful, overwhelming attack that's designed to punch through an enemy's air defences, making it a real nightmare to stop.

More flexible options:

This new force gives Pakistan's leaders more choices in a crisis. They can use these conventional, non-nuclear rockets to send a strong signal without having to immediately resort to using their air force or, even more seriously, their nuclear weapons. It's about having a range of options for different situations.

Learning from past lessons:

This move seems to be a direct response to a recent conflict with India, where Pakistan's military felt its existing systems weren't as effective as they could have been. They're trying to fix those gaps and make sure they're not caught off guard again.

What message does it send to its enemies?

In short, it's a very clear message: "We're serious, we're organised, and we're ready."

A message to India:

This is a big part of it. The new force is a way for Pakistan to show India that it's building up its conventional fighting power, specifically in a way that can hit key targets deep inside Indian territory. It's a way of saying, "If you attack us, we can strike back with precision and power."

A message of deterrence:

The main point is to deter a potential enemy from attacking in the first place. The idea is that the threat of a swift, powerful, and overwhelming rocket barrage is enough to make an opponent think twice about starting a conflict.

A nod to China:

The new force is reportedly modelled on China's People's Liberation Army Rocket Force. This sends a signal that Pakistan is aligning itself closely with its key ally, and is adopting a modern, sophisticated approach to its military. It shows that Pakistan isn't just buying weapons, but also learning from and integrating with a major global power.

Please note, It's not just about a new command structure; it's built on decades of experience.

Pakistan's journey with missiles and rockets goes way back to the 1960s. They were one of the first countries in Asia to establish a space agency, and they started launching their own sounding rockets in the early days. This early experience, along with consistent efforts, has given them a deep understanding of rocketry.

Despite facing sanctions and having to work with limited resources, they've shown a remarkable ability to develop their own missile systems. This "do-it-yourself" spirit, often with significant help from countries like China, means that they have a strong domestic manufacturing base. They're not just buying off-the-shelf weapons; they're actively involved in building and improving them. This is a crucial point because it means they can tailor their missiles to their own specific needs and aren't completely dependent on outside suppliers.

So, while they may not have the vast industrial capacity of a global superpower, they have shown that they are a "force to be reckoned with."

They've proven their ability to innovate and produce a range of rockets and missiles, from short-range tactical ones to long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads.

This new rocket force, therefore, isn't just a shiny new toy. It's the culmination of years of hard work, experience, and a stubborn refusal to be left behind. It sends a message that Pakistan is not only capable of a powerful, unified response, but it has the homegrown expertise to sustain it.

Pakistan needs to enhance its psychological warfare, convey overtly or covertly into the enemy nations Psyche of its Government ministers, military personnel and it's population - the reason is it will give them time to consider any foolhardiness from them.

In addition, Pakistan needs to convey seriously its resolve and it's capabilities to inflict significant damage to its enemies - this will eventually help with deterrence!

If you want PEACE then prepare for WAR!!!

Very encouraging , much needed when we are drowning under the noises of nasayers.

 

[r3alist]

Very encouraging , much needed when we are drowning under the noises of nasayers.

It's a great post, and a possibly key fact is that if it mirrors, aligns or complements the Chinese approach, then the Indians are worried because they already know what that means with air warfare

India's one triumph has been missiles, if you imagine in a few years Pakistan has operationalised 5th gen jets, improved air defense and this new rocket force.....

 

[Yasser76]

Interesting right up on PLARF here

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/CASI/documents/Toolkit%20presentations/3%20CASI%20Commanders%20Toolkit-%20PLARF.pdf

 

[Yasser76]

It's a great post, and a possibly key fact is that if it mirrors, aligns or complements the Chinese approach, then the Indians are worried because they already know what that means with air warfare

India's one triumph has been missiles, if you imagine in a few years Pakistan has operationalised 5th gen jets, improved air defense and this new rocket force.....

Imagine if we grow the Rocket Force into an entire branch of the army, same size as say artillery or armoured corps. Would reflect the importance of missiles in warfare now

 

[Fatman17]

What is going to be the control structure of this new command?
NCA
SPD
PAF or PA
The command reports to whom from the above. I'm assuming that this command will have conventional missile and nuclear weapons capabilities

 

[r3alist]

Imagine if we grow the Rocket Force into an entire branch of the army, same size as say artillery or armoured corps. Would reflect the importance of missiles in warfare now

India has a dilemma, right now. There is no chance that they will ever confront China, there never was.

Instead China can now redirect capability to reinforce Pakistan's threat, maybe even more broadly, in an even more networked way

This is more worrying to India, psychologically, if Pakistan is delivering the blows, witch in any case comes from their own lack of fortitude to counter China to begin with

And why would the Americans care if Indian sensibilities are hurt?