Who Created Harappan / Indus Valley Civilisation? | How Did It End? | Samvaad With Devdutt Pattanaik

[Master Chief]

Yes, they integrated into the local customs

See above post regarding integration of Mleccha barhadari.

 

[Master Chief]

You like it or not this is part and parcel of the history. IVC didn't vanish they transformed into this. Vedism created four offshoots from it, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism. Yeah that's holding the spiritual monopoly of this region. You may not like it but the rest of the world at least theologians view India as the land that gave these philosophies. Not "muh Central Asian steppe"

IVC persists in the genetic lineage of Pakistanis MORESO than Indians. Tell us how exactly this makes dharmics the exclusive descendants, or even the major descendants of the IVC.

THAT IS ASSUMING y I u can demonstrate contiguity between the IVC and the Aryans, which you may struggle to do since you don't care for genetics.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

When these "civilizations", especially prior to the Last Messenger (PBUH), crossed the limits by being too much close to Iblis they got destroyed. A simple rule-of-thumb....

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Yes, and I remain happy to make the argument that there was an Aryan invasion, but that is not relevant to the direction you have taken this conversation in - I am stating that EVEN IF we assume an Aryan bloodless migration and a bloodless integration of their ideologies with native ones in order to create a new ideology (Vedism), then this is still foreign to the land.

Sure why not, live in the past all you want. Also, no that won't make it foreign unless we are believing in Varuna Indra Agni that was worshipped in Steppe back in 2000BCE.

What does the "name" have to do with anything? "Indus" comes from the Greeks and Persians!

Yes, territories for annexation certainly mattered in these religious texts. But also, historical evidence reaffirms the expansionist and aggressive designs of Brahminism.

Sindhu is the name. Sindhu-Saraswati are the most revered rivers and the civilisation died coicinding the death of river Saraswati.

And not even close. RV or all the Vedas are not directions of life, it's a book of rituals one must perform the mantras one must recite when performing a ritual so on and so forth. So naturally anything that was part of daily life was included in it. It's like saying Vedas are book of agriculture because there are rituals to please lord Indra for more rain. That makes it agressive Brahminism of agrarian expansion lol!

 

[hussain0216]

I see eastern Kala Ganga dwellers are still trying to co-opt Pakistani history

I tend to ignore Indians now, pathetic people, who we don't have a connection with and the more divisions we can establish, the better

 

[r3alist]

I see eastern Kala Ganga dwellers are still trying to co-opt Pakistani history

I tend to ignore Indians now, pathetic people, who we don't have a connection with and the more divisions we can establish, the better

It's just an archaeological issues.

Not communal arguments

Anyone who says otherwise has a motive.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

Be clear instead of skirting around the issue.

Mlecchas sat outside the caste system and were caste-less, rendering them "impure" and "barbarians", despite them being established in this land long before the Aryans.

Aryavarta was a pure Vedic land, and Mlecchas remained outside of this realm.

Mlecchas were regarded as uncouth for speaking languages other than the imported lingua sacra Sanskrit.

Imagine a bunch of immigrants lecturing long established denizens on what they should or shouldn't speak.

Another monotonous imagination that's hilariously inaccurate. Gandharans used to be an Aryan tribe, highly revered one earlier but in the later Vedic period they were considered mlechchas. But Gandhara was still a central kingdom in Aryavarta. Many kings formed marriage alliance with them even after their status of mlechcha.
Sanskrit wasn't spoken it's a language of rituals or treaties and remained so. Basically your status is tied to how well you do the rituals and stay in your culture. All the kingdoms in Aryavarta didn't even speak Sanskrit they spoke some kind of prakrit. Sanskrit was codified refined by later grammarians and poets.

 

[Vikramaditya1]

IVC persists in the genetic lineage of Pakistanis MORESO than Indians. Tell us how exactly this makes dharmics the exclusive descendants, or even the major descendants of the IVC.

THAT IS ASSUMING y I u can demonstrate contiguity between the IVC and the Aryans, which you may struggle to do since you don't care for genetics.

Almost all of Indian subcontinent has IVC in their genes. Read your own charts, you take sources and refuse to understand them, forgets you ever quoted it and write fictions that contradict your own previous source.

That is specially why I said genetics didn't matter. Because it's not a geneology based culture. I would go as far as to say those who practices endogamy was considered mlechcha.

 

[r3alist]

be an Aryan tribe

What's your definition of this?

Aryan tribe.....

 

[FarhanSiddiqui]

Story time: My grandfather, aged 20 with other college friends, attended a wedding of their friend in rural Punjab in circa 1951. The father of the groom recounted how he was recruited in the British colonial army, served in North Africa war theatre. Nearly thirty years later another friend who also attended that wedding hijacked that life story and told everyone that is story of his grandfather. People and culture adopt history of other cultures as their own. The Info-Aryans migrating from Eurasian steppes encountered declining IVC people who they called Mlechhas (Sumerians called them Meluhhas) and adopted much culture from them. Nowadays it is called culture appropriation.

 

[Baibers_1260]

Also is this the Same Hindustan some post named Iqbal talked about?

Simple Answer: No. That Hindustan was 5000 years later.

Ruchika Sharma pretty much says it all :

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[Baibers_1260]

Were Harrapans Hindu ?
" Those who control the past control the present and those who control the present control the future " : George Orwell

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[Vikramaditya1]

What's your definition of this?

Aryan tribe.....

Too concerned about the English nomenclature?

 

[r3alist]

Too concerned about the English nomenclature?

It has to mean something, otherwise it's just fantasy story.


What exactly is Aryan in this context?

 

[Master Chief]

Another monotonous imagination that's hilariously inaccurate. Gandharans used to be an Aryan tribe, highly revered one earlier but in the later Vedic period they were considered mlechchas. But Gandhara was still a central kingdom in Aryavarta. Many kings formed marriage alliance with them even after their status of mlechcha.
Sanskrit wasn't spoken it's a language of rituals or treaties and remained so. Basically your status is tied to how well you do the rituals and stay in your culture. All the kingdoms in Aryavarta didn't even speak Sanskrit they spoke some kind of prakrit. Sanskrit was codified refined by later grammarians and poets.

Keep digging mate.

Prakrit and Sanskrit are both indo-european tongues. You have simply made my point for me by mentioning that one of these tongues is for "common use" and the other is "sacred".

As I keep saying, open a thread on the linguistics specifically. I can hand you your shovel there.