PAF Future Acquisition Plans

[Admiral General Aladin]

The civilian government spends years getting a few billion dollars from IMF. Then the defence brass spends it on some big ticket purchase. With the submarines, Tanks, Frigates, Helicopters, J-10Cs and now this, PKR should be 500 to the USD when the bills come in.

Congratulations to Pakistan for the 5th Generation Jet purchase

The civilian government spends years getting a few billion dollars from IMF. Then the defence brass spends it on some big ticket purchase. With the submarines, Tanks, Frigates, Helicopters, J-10Cs and now this, PKR should be 500 to the USD when the bills come in.

Congratulations to Pakistan for the 5th Generation Jet purchase.

But i failed to see what's your problem if Pakistan buy fifth gen jet.it is Pakistan's problem.you are a indian. Why are you venting in a Pakistani defence page?

 

[Waz]

Kaan project .
Indian pacific partner.
Pakistani economy.

At 30 posts deleted on the above. Please stick to the topic.

 

[StormBreaker]

Yeah, you just popped up like a daisy outta nowhere...

Whats up, homes...?

BTW, J-31 news (My love since 2015) brought me back to it and now I am once again interested in all this.

You got no idea how much I’ve always fancied that machine

 

[imranpak781]

heh...

Last time, USA showed largesse on Pakistan's arsenal. The price Pakistan paid was phenomenal. Most of it was because of the way Pakistan conducts its business.

Then came CPEC and the story repeated.

Now its more Chinese weapons.

There is still one truth in all of it : there are no friends nor free lunches among nations in this world. China will extract a massive price from Pakistan. And yes, China can also prove to be a unreliable partner depending upon how things are at that moment. If some interest group in Pakistan were pro-America at the wrong time, you will see a replay of Pressler. Largesse is after all dependent upon the mind of giver and not the needs of the reciever.

No matter whoever comes and whatever they give or do for you, the single constant Pakistan will remain in this equation. If you want to make this equation favourable, you will have to make that constant favourable.

heh...

Last time, USA showed largesse on Pakistan's arsenal. The price Pakistan paid was phenomenal. Most of it was because of the way Pakistan conducts its business.

Then came CPEC and the story repeated.

Now its more Chinese weapons.

There is still one truth in all of it : there are no friends nor free lunches among nations in this world. China will extract a massive price from Pakistan. And yes, China can also prove to be a unreliable partner depending upon how things are at that moment. If some interest group in Pakistan were pro-America at the wrong time, you will see a replay of Pressler. Largesse is after all dependent upon the mind of giver and not the needs of the reciever.

No matter whoever comes and whatever they give or do for you, the single constant Pakistan will remain in this equation. If you want to make this equation favourable, you will have to make that constant favourable.

No matter how much unreliable China become but still it will be more reliable than USA. USA has failed Pakistan many times.

 

[VersusChristi]

No matter how much unreliable China become but still it will be more reliable than USA. USA has failed Pakistan many times.

Let me put it in this way. Nothing will be reliable enough unless you force them with a choice : Either supply us reliably or you will loose a major customer. Otherwise you will get what you got before : Pressler Amendment and dictation of terms. No one is out there to look for your interests and no, your interest will not always align with whatever power you are looking up to.

They say you can win a war with borrowed weapons or so... I will say that you can not fight a war with weapons that you begged.

 

[Nilgiri]

Pakistani economy.

Bro, I feel this can validly intersect with this topic since in the end basic sustenance provides for security (and my contention is that this the donkey that must be put before the cart, the reversal of which to some degree in Pakistan can only be deduced by debate and discussion etc).

I hope to later get into longer form convo with @That_Guy and others like him in this thread (like on page 15) on basic longer term wherewithal pertinent to all defence acquisitions coming up including the 5th gen aircraft programs like this one.

Would it be ok to continue those here, or should we move those entirely to the Pak economy thread now instead?

 

[imranpak781]

heh...

Last time, USA showed largesse on Pakistan's arsenal. The price Pakistan paid was phenomenal. Most of it was because of the way Pakistan conducts its business.

Then came CPEC and the story repeated.

Now its more Chinese weapons.

There is still one truth in all of it : there are no friends nor free lunches among nations in this world. China will extract a massive price from Pakistan. And yes, China can also prove to be a unreliable partner depending upon how things are at that moment. If some interest group in Pakistan were pro-America at the wrong time, you will see a replay of Pressler. Largesse is after all dependent upon the mind of giver and not the needs of the reciever.

No matter whoever comes and whatever they give or do for you, the single constant Pakistan will remain in this equation. If you want to make this equation favourable, you will have to make that constant favourable.

So lets say there is a conflict on going and your J-10s need a specific radar modules to be replaced. At the same time, your relationship with China is not going well because you got some nice deals from USA or the power that be got some nice deal from USA. China decides to delay shipping those modules to teach you a lesson, bringing availability down. You have ZERO say in this now because its not like that you can replace Chinese jets with something else. The jets you need are not available, for the price point or purchase payment terms that you can offer, from any one else but China.

This is what can happen. You induct weapons that are dependent upon good will of China, the weapons that you can not replace, you basically have to keep yourself in good books of China always.

What if tomorrow China has a conflict with someone in middle east and wants to use Pakistan as a staging ground? Will you like to play the same role as you did in Afghan war?

The whole scenario you presented is the way USA blackmails it's allies. In 74 years of Pakistan China relationship has never been sour to a level that china has to blackmail Pakistan. While USA has blackmailed Pakistan so many times that you will lost count. China is 100 times more trustworthy than USA.

 

[imranpak781]

The whole scenario you presented is the way USA blackmails it's allies. In 74 years of Pakistan China relationship has never been sour to a level that china has to blackmail Pakistan. While USA has blackmailed Pakistan so many times that you will lost count. China is 100 times more trustworthy than USA. Atleast Pakistan and China can trust each other against common foe india.

 

[iblini]

1. J35 is navy's top project and airforce second after J20.
2. WS-19 is going very smoothly.
3. J35 is definitely not some second tier as it has many features that even J20 lacks (as per big shrimps), and the "export product is always inferior" doesn't applied anymore.

 

[Signalian]

This is a valid point. The US in the past has provided loans, tax relief, R&D funding, direct contracts, export assistance to US defence firms for national interests and to achieve technological superiority. In this case the Pak armed forces seem to be in the best position to do this as no major private or independant Pak companies have the ability currently. For e.g SUPARCO, PAC, HIT, POF are all state owned enterprises.

What I wonder is whether there is hidden budget for strategic purposes which is not disclosed?

Pakistan's independence and survival was threatened by India since the very beginning but Nuke and missiles were made for that very purpose. The mentality of threat to security of Pakistan should have stopped there but it didn't. This is where military should have lost its importance owing to the fact that nukes will save Pakistan from India during any conventional war. Today J-10s are in service, tomorrow there will be J-31s, its a never ending saga. That company GIDS is also state owned. Military affiliated itself with NUST for R&D matters but there is GIKI, UET, FAST etc who can conduct research in civil sector through granted funds.

The Civil sector should have then gained momentum in everything - R&D, infrastructure, medical, banking, manufacturing, etc, instead the reliance upon military grew with every year instead of military being sidelined. While military has started ventures to sustain itself and grow, why the civil sector lacked behind ?

There is no civil commercial helicopter manufacturing facility in Pakistan, let alone Pakistani companies making transport aircraft. Many years ago, Hyundai became the largest shipbuilder and its not a military company.

 

[Signalian]

Their are two sides to our economy..
One which is documented...which constitutes not more then 30-35 % of our total eco. The one which contributes the majority of taxes.

Second which is the under ground eco. Our dark eco. Which is the norm in almost all our markets n trading hubs, industries, hotels etc....it is a cash based system with transactions in 100s of billions taking place every day.
The size of this eco. Sys none have been able to fathom n has dumb founded most.

N thats the thing that is keeping Pakistan going.

I remember the chief of imf saying that once Pak external debt hits 100 billion $ the country would become "financially insolvent".
Would have loved to see her face when Pak external debt crossed 120 mark n still going strong

Lets say, while J-31 was maturing over years, why didnt any Pakistani aeronautical company come up with solid proposals for a stealth version of JFT ?

 

[Signalian]

In this case the Pak armed forces seem to be in the best position to do this as no major private or independant Pak companies have the ability currently. For e.g SUPARCO, PAC, HIT, POF are all state owned enterprises.

There was a discussion regarding that how Military Generals or senior PAF commanders are short sighted, dont have enough educational credentials etc, so why not put up a CEO Vs General type scenario.

Say for an aircraft project, would a civilian CEO from an aeronautical company be a better prospect than a serving Air Chief Marshal of PAF ? But getting a CEO from say, BAE systems, is almost impossible since security SOPs wouldn't allow a civilian to head defence related projects.
Now when the experience of that CEO along with his aircraft design team are put into practice, Pakistan maybe able to catch up the technological gaps which have been there for years.

This is why civil companies are needed, which are not state owned.

 

[TopGun786]

With what kind of money?

So you are back with a taunt.
Seems like you don't know our Armed forces..... They will manage, don't worry.

 

[MastanKhan]

its pakistans deception that has built the mistrust.. it started with operation gibtralter and operation granslam when its ally usa was never informed a d was caught off guard

Hi,

Americans are more deceitful than the pakistanis---.

Pakistanis will hum and haw---but the american deceit will destroy your nation---decimate your future generations to come---annihilate you existense---.

Be real afraid of the americans---be real afraid---.

 

[hyperman]

Hi,

Are you stupid or living in a different world---.

India had declined the procurement of the F16 BLK70---that were to be manufactured in india for India primarily---they then rejected last year the offer of the F-35 as well.

Dude---you need to do some research before typing---. It is very easy to type and yap around rather than searching for answer---.

And @Deino --- I thought you would grow some intellect over the years you were with pakdef forum---but incidently---you always show lack of intellect & understanding of defence procurements---.

I gave you the reasoning.

Don't tell people to do research when you know fkall about US export controls on things like the F-35, You think I didn't pay attention to the MMRCA process? Lockheed offered the F-16 "Super Viper", but India narrowed it down to the Rafale and Eurofighter(not too surprising considering Pakistan operating the aircraft and having deep familiarity with it). Then Indian media started spreading Bullshit about how Obama went and pleaded with Modi and offered the F-35, its all nonsense, while the Obama Administration did lobby the Indian govt to reconsider the F-16(Our politicians tend to act like salespeople for military contractors), at no point was the F-35 offered. That has been nonsense the Indian Media made up, you probably believe their BS abut the surgical strikes, considering you don't seem to question official narratives. lol

I gave you the reasoning as to why the F-35 is very unlikely to be offered to India, and the reasoning is structural. Put simply, you cannot have defense integration with the Russian and receive sensitive platforms like the F-35, not to mention the corruption in the Indian Defense Establishment, with senior level individuals selling state secrets to Pakistan for pictures of Bobs and Vagins, I can't imagine wtf the Russian would be able to honeypot out of you, especially with their deep links to the Indian defense establishment. Some Russian KGB Svetlana prob gonna honeypot some high level person in the Indian Air Force, who wants "Fraaaaandship" with the "Gori", next thing you know all the sensitive info about the F-35 is being sent to the Kremlin. lol