Iranian Air Force (IRIAF/IRGC-ASF) | News and Discussions

[sahureka2]

strateger - Piet
we are back to the hypotheses of some years ago to produce in Iran
here my photomontages
1) Kowsar single-engine, single-seater derived from the two-seater version

2) local version of the Mig-21 /J7

or


3)I had added an aircraft built thanks to the knowledge of J7 and F5


4) and why not an aircraft built thanks to the knowledge of J7 and F4


without forgetting those real images of a few years ago of some parts of an unidentified aircraft

 

[Emirzad]

View attachment 62771

Wings made for "Erfanian" prototype, a local FTC-2000G variant driven from F-7N with Kowsars avionics/controls. This pic is years old, nothing came out of it so apparently, the project never went anywhere. Induction of YAK-130 might have killed this altogether, I say good riddance.

 

[Immortals]

Wings made for "Erfanian" prototype, a local FTC-2000G variant driven from F-7N with Kowsars avionics/controls. This pic is years old, nothing came out of it so apparently, the project never went anywhere. Induction of YAK-130 might have killed this altogether, I say good riddance.

South Korea and Turkey exposing Iran’s glacial development pace. Of course we cannot discount their access to foreign tech. No doubt about that point, but it cannot be a crutch that others use to justify this lackluster showing by Air Force. After all Air defense and Navy and IRGC branches had to overcome their own struggles.

Iran started in ‘90s and doesn’t have one mass produced plane design in over 30 years of test beds and R&D. Not a single one.

Clearly the OWJ and TF RQ-170 engine cannot be be produced reliably at scale or at an attractive cost, because if they could we would have many more jet powered drones and a lot more fighter jets than <24 Kowsar and derivative versions we have.

 

[Deino]

…

4) and why not an aircraft built thanks to the knowledge of J7 and F4
View attachment 62777
…

Come on, simply since such Frankenplanes make no sense at all and who the hell will manufacture a modern fighter based on 2nd and 3rd generation fighters? They are technological, structural, material-wise and more just outdated!

 

[Emirzad]

South Korea and Turkey exposing Iran’s glacial development pace. Of course we cannot discount their access to foreign tech. No doubt about that point, but it cannot be a crutch that others use to justify this lackluster showing by Air Force. After all Air defense and Navy and IRGC branches had to overcome their own struggles.

Iran started in ‘90s and doesn’t have one mass produced plane design in over 30 years of test beds and R&D. Not a single one.

Clearly the OWJ and TF RQ-170 engine cannot be be produced reliably at scale or at an attractive cost, because if they could we would have many more jet powered drones and a lot more fighter jets than <24 Kowsar and derivative versions we have.

Leadership can do the following in this sequence:

- Create a commission/committee that checks records of statements and reports of all the officers in IRIAF+IAIO related bodies. Whoever has ever been found to make baseless claims in media or to the MODAFL, without any mercy or second chances, fire these people or arrest/fine them to make an example out of them for future potentially corrupt people. Replace them with newer people if they do not produce results, repeat the cycle until the results are there.

- Allocate the funds to IRIAF, the margin between other forces and IRIAF is getting bigger and bigger every passing year because of years of udget disparity. These people are having a hard time building a modernized F-5 while Air-Defence is inducting Dual ARH-guided hypersonic TVC-controlled HIMADs on Datalinks with its 4 x AESA radars. Money translates to technology, Mullahs do not know what airpower means, they were getting fooled by battle-hardened ground soldiers turned stupid Generals like Salami, Jafari, Vahidi, Bagheri etc.

- Demand strictly schedule-based results from people in charge of IAIO and its sub-bodies. Incompetence, deception, propoganda, and tall claims should be punished within the legal framework. How many times have we seen the aviation sector pulling media stunts compared to missile forces whose gliding MaRVs recently passed through the Iron dome but no tall claims were made? The culture within the aviation sector needs to change.

... Korean example is good but the Turkish aviation sector is a mess as well if you look deeper. Not on the Iranian level but considering for how long open their legs have been for NATO, they should have been on another level.

 

[Piet]

strateger - Piet
we are back to the hypotheses of some years ago to produce in Iran
here my photomontages

1.1) Interior 2 x cannon dropped to 1 X barrel to port, beneath the fuselage.
1) Kowsar single-engine, single-seater derived from the two-seater version
View attachment 62765
2).1 Nice really. Sensible forward avionics bay & nosecone, FOV supportive cockpit, and obviously smaller intakes- with RCS in mind. If the wings are cranked deltas this a/c would make sense. The turbojet at back would of course have to go.

2) local version of the Mig-21 /J7
View attachment 62766
or
View attachment 62774
3.1) Reminds me of the front end of 2). Not sure where the intakes figure in the RCS stakes.


3)I had added an aircraft built thanks to the knowledge of J7 and F5
View attachment 62767
4.1) Interesting rendition. 'Somewhat' F-5/20 front end & radome, although visibly more volume friendly. The dorsal hump reminds of that of the MiG-29S. From this angle at least the cockpit seems to be a bit limited pertaining to FOV. Of interest to me personally was the photoshopped addition of an R-77 BVR. AAM, and obviously also the wingtip WVR AAM. Think this is the first time that I have seen an image of such added to a F-5/20 type.
4) and why not an aircraft built thanks to the knowledge of J7 and F4
View attachment 62777
4.1)I think that such an a/c would be a 'bomb truck' par excellence. As for other roles, these would best be determined by the IRIAF in accordance with government policy and its on-the-ground.

without forgetting those real images of a few years ago of some parts of an unidentified aircraft
View attachment 62771

I still regard this as a good investment.

Time, of course, will render judgement.

I hold out good faith that AF + related announcements and unveilings will not be too long in coming.

At a difficult and uncertain time in a country's existence, all would stand to benefit from such a 'pick-me-up' announcement or unveiling. Prospective aggressor(s) however would hopefully experience the opposite.

Piet

 

[DedBot]

Don't know what industrial and political problems might occur though. Especially by Pakistan.

I always found JF-17 to be suitable for Iran and Bangladesh. Due to limited finances but the value-for-money, JF-17 fits the role perfectly.
One of the main issue I personally think both of the above countries are hesitant to pursue is ego. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that it somewhere factors in.

Less for Iran though as they have a large airspace to defend and want to support local initiatives. Additionally, Iran just has other priorities than building an AF. Different Doctrine/Strategy.

But I believed Iran could actually get a really nice deal as relations with China, Russia are good and knowing their requirement, they can order in large numbers, even in triple digits with negotiating to add their own subsystems.

Industrial capacity can be managed for a large order if there is a deal imo and as for political problems, I believe the pressure won't be much if the deal is of large numbers as Gulf nations have too much money to spend and the best they can do to stop the deal is order one or two squadrons. They prefer getting milked by the French and Yankies, rather than spending money wisely.

 

[Emirzad]

I always found JF-17 to be suitable for Iran and Bangladesh. Due to limited finances but the value-for-money, JF-17 fits the role perfectly.
One of the main issue I personally think both of the above countries are hesitant to pursue is ego. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that it somewhere factors in.

Less for Iran though as they have a large airspace to defend and want to support local initiatives. Additionally, Iran just has other priorities than building an AF. Different Doctrine/Strategy.

But I believed Iran could actually get a really nice deal as relations with China, Russia are good and knowing their requirement, they can order in large numbers, even in triple digits with negotiating to add their own subsystems.

Industrial capacity can be managed for a large order if there is a deal imo and as for political problems, I believe the pressure won't be much if the deal is of large numbers as Gulf nations have too much money to spend and the best they can do to stop the deal is order one or two squadrons. They prefer getting milked by the French and Yankies, rather than spending money wisely.

You do not understand the situation. Our need is long-range interception with Mini-AWACS/BVR capabilities which is currently the job of F-14A/AM in IRIAF. Considering this specialized air-superiority role, our fleet is kinda large with some 42 flyable airframes that IRIAF currently owns. They can venture out of Iranian IADS or operate on the edge of it where they search/detect a SOW armed Israeli or Saudi F-15 (~15 m^2 RCS) at ~250+ KM, track it at probably </= 200 KM, and can fire a salvo of SARH/ARH guided long-ranged BVR missiles (Fakour-90, 150 KM) at the enemy to ruin their mission outside Iranian airspace (Persian Gulf, Iraqi airspace). Iranian IADS is a beast of its own so a thwarted enemy attack fighter means IADS now can bring the enemy down with their range of highly modern HIMADS/SHORADS. This is the strategy of Iranian air defense.

Now because IRIAF is the weakest force among all military branches inside Iran, they with their lowest share in the Defence budget, are currently having a hard time maintaining or upgrading F-14 locally. Local upgrade package eats up around 5-10 Million USD per airframe. Plane can get a 200 KM ranging ARH BVR, a HOBS WVR, an avionics upgrade too. With this much money to just upgrade the plane, the operational and maintenance costs are an additional burden.

Only two planes can take its role. One is MIG-31 BM armed with R-33 which Russia can't produce for or supply to Iran, other is SU-35S with R-37, which will land in Iran probably next year or so. Initial batch will be 24 which is confirmed, one kind of reliable journalistic source is saying that total order will be 68xSU-35S + 12xSU-30SM/SM2. YAK-130 AT are already in Iran to prepare batchs of pilots for this incoming fleet.

Light CAP fighters like FC-1 are of no use in this scheme. Iran has produced a 4.0 Gen light fighter of its own, with modern avionics. if fully armed, it can datalink (dual-duplex) with entire IADS, UCAVs, fighters, jam enemy, attack, etc but this plane or any similar plane can not do what F-14 does for Iran. We need large air-superiority fighters with enough energy that can come in and out of the Iranian IADS, track the enemy at a distance, shoot, leave the area, come back again, gain altitude to become a surveillance platform then drop down, etc. SU-35S is a fit to replace F-14 fleet.

 

[Piet]

I always found JF-17 to be suitable for Iran and Bangladesh. Due to limited finances but the value-for-money, JF-17 fits the role perfectly.
One of the main issue I personally think both of the above countries are hesitant to pursue is ego. I could be wrong but I have a feeling that it somewhere factors in.

Less for Iran though as they have a large airspace to defend and want to support local initiatives. Additionally, Iran just has other priorities than building an AF. Different Doctrine/Strategy.

But I believed Iran could actually get a really nice deal as relations with China, Russia are good and knowing their requirement, they can order in large numbers, even in triple digits with negotiating to add their own subsystems.

Industrial capacity can be managed for a large order if there is a deal imo and as for political problems, I believe the pressure won't be much if the deal is of large numbers as Gulf nations have too much money to spend and the best they can do to stop the deal is order one or two squadrons. They prefer getting milked by the French and Yankies, rather than spending money wisely.

I have come to realize through my own observations, and also in my own country, that corruption is indeed a very large problem. Especially among politicians. So I would not be surprised at all if ego do come in at second place to this. And, bugger the country that these politicians have sworn to serve.

What I would worry about is not so much cost and industrial capacity, or the lack thereof, but rather improper financial and political arm-twisting. Especially as far as Pakistan is concerned, considering that US-supplied F-16's, currently make up a large part of its AF.

For instance - FC-1/JF-17 is manufactured 58% in Pakistan and 42% in China. Where will the other 58% come from if the US shakes it head at Pakistan to partake in a strictly Pakistani <-->Chinese --> Iranian contract?

While Iran do possess an industrial aviation, electronics, and engine, capacity, this reminds me of the saying that 'an army marches on its stomach'.

So, if there is no political will then there will be no commitment of the funds required, nothing to established the required engineering equipment and tools with, nothing to pay highly schooled and qualified scientists, engineers, skilled workers etc. with, and nothing to pay suppliers with.

Immortals referred to this as a 'glacial development pace'. I unfortunately cannot differ from this.

Piet

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

I have come to realize through my own observations, and also in my own country, that corruption is indeed a very large problem. Especially among politicians. So I would not be surprised at all if ego do come in at second place to this. And, bugger the country that these politicians have sworn to serve.

What I would worry about is not so much cost and industrial capacity, or the lack thereof, but rather improper financial and political arm-twisting. Especially as far as Pakistan is concerned, considering that US-supplied F-16's, currently make up a large part of its AF.

For instance - FC-1/JF-17 is manufactured 58% in Pakistan and 42% in China. Where will the other 58% come from if the US shakes it head at Pakistan to partake in a strictly Pakistani <-->Chinese --> Iranian contract?

While Iran do possess an industrial aviation, electronics, and engine, capacity, this reminds me of the saying that 'an army marches on its stomach'.

So, if there is no political will then there will be no commitment of the funds required, nothing to established the required engineering equipment and tools with, nothing to pay highly schooled and qualified scientists, engineers, skilled workers etc. with, and nothing to pay suppliers with.

Immortals referred to this as a 'glacial development pace'. I unfortunately cannot differ from this.

Piet

You are wrong about the IRIAF and the time will come when we will see who here was right and wrong.

The political will is there, the funds dedicated to the IRIAF are more considerable than you think, there is a huge amount of work being done behind the scenes that the public does not see at present but it will come. Leave the glacial rhythms aside, the time for big news arrives. And I will ask the moderator Deino in due time to sort the truth from the falsehood here. We will see who is spreading false information and interpretation.

On the Kowsar, I would be 200% right. We saw 3 assembly lines, an engine assembly line. You forget it very often but a general said that all F-5s would be upgraded to Kowsar standards, I had published the news on the other forum. Manufacturing new radar, new weapons, various parts for upgrades, AI link upgrades, advanced avionics, network data fusion, software upgrades, it costs a lot of money.

We have the progress of Yasin, the F-313 manned and drone projects, the F-4 upgrades and other aircraft, the production of various drones in numbers and the new ones to come. The Shafaq modify project is still there discreetly in the background, you have to be attentive you know.....According to photos that I saw a while ago, it would not be surprising if they presented us with a version of the Karrar Drone in 2.3 bigger. It was a photo in the factory I think, I would have to find it somewhere. Probability? 95% in my opinion

When you think about all that, it is clear that the IRIAF is very active and very well funded. The time of credibility accounts will arrive in this IRIAF section in the near future, you will witness it. Why am I so certain about the subject? Mystery and bubble gum ..........

 

[Piet]

You are wrong about the IRIAF and the time will come when we will see who here was right and wrong.

The political will is there, the funds dedicated to the IRIAF are more considerable than you think, there is a huge amount of work being done behind the scenes that the public does not see at present but it will come. Leave the glacial rhythms aside, the time for big news arrives. And I will ask the moderator Deino in due time to sort the truth from the falsehood here. We will see who is spreading false information and interpretation.

On the Kowsar, I would be 200% right. We saw 3 assembly lines, an engine assembly line. You forget it very often but a general said that all F-5s would be upgraded to Kowsar standards, I had published the news on the other forum. Manufacturing new radar, new weapons, various parts for upgrades, AI link upgrades, advanced avionics, network data fusion, software upgrades, it costs a lot of money.

We have the progress of Yasin, the F-313 manned and drone projects, the F-4 upgrades and other aircraft, the production of various drones in numbers and the new ones to come. The Shafaq modify project is still there discreetly in the background, you have to be attentive you know.....According to photos that I saw a while ago, it would not be surprising if they presented us with a version of the Karrar Drone in 2.3 bigger. It was a photo in the factory I think, I would have to find it somewhere. Probability? 95% in my opinion

When you think about all that, it is clear that the IRIAF is very active and very well funded. The time of credibility accounts will arrive in this IRIAF section in the near future, you will witness it. Why am I so certain about the subject? Mystery and bubble gum ..........

The above seems very positive.

For Iran's sake I hope that this is correct, and what I surmise, wrong.

So much depends on various things coming together at the right time at the right place.

Hopefully soon.

Piet

 

[Piet]

Leadership can do the following in this sequence:

- Create a commission/committee that checks records of statements and reports of all the officers in IRIAF+IAIO related bodies. Whoever has ever been found to make baseless claims in media or to the MODAFL, without any mercy or second chances, fire these people or arrest/fine them to make an example out of them for future potentially corrupt people. Replace them with newer people if they do not produce results, repeat the cycle until the results are there.

- Allocate the funds to IRIAF, the margin between other forces and IRIAF is getting bigger and bigger every passing year because of years of udget disparity. These people are having a hard time building a modernized F-5 while Air-Defence is inducting Dual ARH-guided hypersonic TVC-controlled HIMADs on Datalinks with its 4 x AESA radars. Money translates to technology, Mullahs do not know what airpower means, they were getting fooled by battle-hardened ground soldiers turned stupid Generals like Salami, Jafari, Vahidi, Bagheri etc.

- Demand strictly schedule-based results from people in charge of IAIO and its sub-bodies. Incompetence, deception, propoganda, and tall claims should be punished within the legal framework. How many times have we seen the aviation sector pulling media stunts compared to missile forces whose gliding MaRVs recently passed through the Iron dome but no tall claims were made? The culture within the aviation sector needs to change.

... Korean example is good but the Turkish aviation sector is a mess as well if you look deeper. Not on the Iranian level but considering for how long open their legs have been for NATO, they should have been on another level.

Gliding MaRV's passing through Iron Dome defenses.

I can understand why there were no big issues made of this by either sides.

It means that a deterrent exists which is now much more visible than it ever was before.

The recent mass missile & UAV strike means that there is the political will to respond to attacks on its soil, as well as the technical capability to make the response count.

And this anyone wishing to launch attacks inside of Iran now knows.

Piet

 

[Piet]

You do not understand the situation. Our need is long-range interception with Mini-AWACS/BVR capabilities which is currently the job of F-14A/AM in IRIAF. Considering this specialized air-superiority role, our fleet is kinda large with some 42 flyable airframes that IRIAF currently owns. They can venture out of Iranian IADS or operate on the edge of it where they search/detect a SOW armed Israeli or Saudi F-15 (~15 m^2 RCS) at ~250+ KM, track it at probably </= 200 KM, and can fire a salvo of SARH/ARH guided long-ranged BVR missiles (Fakour-90, 150 KM) at the enemy to ruin their mission outside Iranian airspace (Persian Gulf, Iraqi airspace). Iranian IADS is a beast of its own so a thwarted enemy attack fighter means IADS now can bring the enemy down with their range of highly modern HIMADS/SHORADS. This is the strategy of Iranian air defense.

Now because IRIAF is the weakest force among all military branches inside Iran, they with their lowest share in the Defence budget, are currently having a hard time maintaining or upgrading F-14 locally. Local upgrade package eats up around 5-10 Million USD per airframe. Plane can get a 200 KM ranging ARH BVR, a HOBS WVR, an avionics upgrade too. With this much money to just upgrade the plane, the operational and maintenance costs are an additional burden.

Only two planes can take its role. One is MIG-31 BM armed with R-33 which Russia can't produce for or supply to Iran, other is SU-35S with R-37, which will land in Iran probably next year or so. Initial batch will be 24 which is confirmed, one kind of reliable journalistic source is saying that total order will be 68xSU-35S + 12xSU-30SM/SM2. YAK-130 AT are already in Iran to prepare batchs of pilots for this incoming fleet.

Light CAP fighters like FC-1 are of no use in this scheme. Iran has produced a 4.0 Gen light fighter of its own, with modern avionics. if fully armed, it can datalink (dual-duplex) with entire IADS, UCAVs, fighters, jam enemy, attack, etc but this plane or any similar plane can not do what F-14 does for Iran. We need large air-superiority fighters with enough energy that can come in and out of the Iranian IADS, track the enemy at a distance, shoot, leave the area, come back again, gain altitude to become a surveillance platform then drop down, etc. SU-35S is a fit to replace F-14 fleet.

To be sure, Iran's AIDS is a beast. And, together with it will also be its Air Defenses. One should imagine such a force, with the majority of its quite newly unveiled AD missiles in place, and also in 'sufficient' numbers.

This would enable these missiles to at least engage incoming strike passages from 200+ km. As these batteries, being mobile, would be at different ranges and dispersed locations from the borders.

The next logical line of defense would be fighter aircraft.

True, that even in this thread fighter aircraft are either a yes, or a no. Taking into account how such aircraft are selling around the globe, than these buyers probably have different strategies and rules of engagement to Iran. Besides that, aircraft manufacturers should really be turning a good profit currently.

Piet

 

[Emirzad]

Gliding MaRV's passing through Iron Dome defenses.

I can understand why there were no big issues made of this by either sides.

It means that a deterrent exists which is now much more visible than it ever was before.

The recent mass missile & UAV strike means that there is the political will to respond to attacks on its soil, as well as the technical capability to make the response count.

And this anyone wishing to launch attacks inside of Iran now knows.

Piet

Some missiles passing through and hitting targets are not deterrents. They will become deterrent if Iran becomes an openly nuclear armed state.

To be sure, Iran's AIDS is a beast. And, together with it will also be its Air Defenses. One should imagine such a force, with the majority of its quite newly unveiled AD missiles in place, and also in 'sufficient' numbers.

This would enable these missiles to at least engage incoming strike passages from 200+ km. As these batteries, being mobile, would be at different ranges and dispersed locations from the borders.

The next logical line of defense would be fighter aircraft.

True, that even in this thread fighter aircraft are either a yes, or a no. Taking into account how such aircraft are selling around the globe, than these buyers probably have different strategies and rules of engagement to Iran. Besides that, aircraft manufacturers should really be turning a good profit currently.

Piet

Iraqi airspace can become a major problem for Iran because IAF and Western allies have long-ranged SOWs and ALBMs. They can target southern Iranian infrastructure and military hotspots from far away from the Iranian airspace. Our IADS is strong as hell but it can not fight a war beyond 300 KM away from Iranian border. We can not operate these Mobile HIMAD units in Iraq either unless the Iraqi militias or the military itself is armed with these layers of air-defense and are trained on them which is just not feasible. Long-range aerial interception or even a replicated Tit for Tat attack is the only way to cover this vulnerability. Post F-14, no fighter can do this job even if we get MIG-29 upgraded to SMT standard.

The current F-14A/AM fleet itself is not that capable unless they spend some ~1 Billion USD on 42 airframes to bring them to FMC (Full Mission Capable) status armed with modern weapons. Again not feasible considering how hard it is to maintain and operate this airframe. Hence, the fleet is going to be retired it seems in favor of the incoming SU-35S. With Khibiny ECM and R-37+R-73 SU-35S can replace Tomcat easily. If Iranian military strategists were smart enough to have learnt something from the Ukraine theatre, they would turn the Iranian F-14 fleet to MIG-31BM a strategic force to act along with SU-35S just like how Russians use MIG-31BM with the Flanker fleet. If 42 airframes can become armed to teeth FMC machines for 1 Billion USD then so be it, the same people wasted 9 x F-5 airframes on Azarakhsh and Saeghe program. But IRIAF decision makers are highly corrupt and incompetent people.

 

[jauk]

Leadership can do the following in this sequence:

- Create a commission/committee that checks records of statements and reports of all the officers in IRIAF+IAIO related bodies. Whoever has ever been found to make baseless claims in media or to the MODAFL, without any mercy or second chances, fire these people or arrest/fine them to make an example out of them for future potentially corrupt people. Replace them with newer people if they do not produce results, repeat the cycle until the results are there.

- Allocate the funds to IRIAF, the margin between other forces and IRIAF is getting bigger and bigger every passing year because of years of udget disparity. These people are having a hard time building a modernized F-5 while Air-Defence is inducting Dual ARH-guided hypersonic TVC-controlled HIMADs on Datalinks with its 4 x AESA radars. Money translates to technology, Mullahs do not know what airpower means, they were getting fooled by battle-hardened ground soldiers turned stupid Generals like Salami, Jafari, Vahidi, Bagheri etc.

- Demand strictly schedule-based results from people in charge of IAIO and its sub-bodies. Incompetence, deception, propoganda, and tall claims should be punished within the legal framework. How many times have we seen the aviation sector pulling media stunts compared to missile forces whose gliding MaRVs recently passed through the Iron dome but no tall claims were made? The culture within the aviation sector needs to change.

... Korean example is good but the Turkish aviation sector is a mess as well if you look deeper. Not on the Iranian level but considering for how long open their legs have been for NATO, they should have been on another level.

I believe there’s too much khodemooni bazee and toodarvasee ’ going on. Even nepotism. Given that, the solutions are top down not bottom up like you suggest. I don’t expect Iranian commanders to know everything but they do act as if they do . Frankly, many of them do not come across as media competent which is high up there and equivalent to technical competence. The war room image of these folks quibbling over Raisi’s search was very telling. The recent awful report on Raisi’s death is another very telling item. The report does not come across as trying to hide something but, worse, it reeks of a deep lack of awareness of what the nature of a report actually is.