J-31 to be inducted soon| Pilot training reportedly in progress

The 80-90 unit figure is from PAF acquisition history. Whenever it purchased an aircraft from national funds, it always planned for at least 90 units.

It's not even restricted to low-cost platforms like the F-6 or F-7; for example:
  • It acquired 90+ Mirage III/5s through the 1970s
  • Planned for 110 F-16A/Bs in the late 1980s
  • Negotiated for the M2K/-5 with the idea that it would eventually acquire 80
  • Peace Drive F-16 plan involved 55 plus an option for 20 more (source)
Each new fighter acquisition involves a fixed overhead in training, maintenance setup, and other logistics/ground support elements. The PAF wants to distribute that load across many units rather than setting up another parallel setup after a few small purchases. Not only that, but it wants the high-tech capability to be available across Pakistan, not concentrated in one command/theater of operations. You need numbers for that.

Hence, when it evaluates a fighter, it doesn't think about the cost of acquiring only 20 or 30. AHQ factors in the total feasibility of building a fleet of ~90+ strong. If the PAF's focus was to acquire several dozen planes, it would've acquired the Typhoon or Su-35.

So, ultimately, the J-10CE program will stretch to at least 90 units. There are plenty of factors supporting that eventuality. First, it's available. The J-31 is still a prototype, we don't even have a LRIP unit to work with. Second, it's the workhorse of the PLAAF and in production, which gives it economies of scale and a relatively competitive price point. Third, the PAF has experience with it and knows what to expect, so why quickly reset the cycle again with the J-31?

IMO, I don't think the J-31 itself is an 'immortality play' by the current ACM, not in the way some think. I do believe the announcement was an immortality play as it was premature (the J-31 isn't in production yet) and for a domestic audience. But the J-31 isn't.

But I think AHQ has been eyeing the J-31 for years as the F-16A/Bs will start aging out in 2030. The core design of the J-31 could make for a balanced offensive 'speartip' fighter, replacing the air-to-air and SOW value of the F-16s and Mirage ROSE, respectively.

Hence, the J-10CE and J-31 are likely sequential, or even parallel programs. BTW, this whole JF-17 PFX thing isn't a sure thing either. It could fail and, in turn, force the PAF to look for some other option for shoring up its light/medium-weight fleet (for area-denial and point-defence missions). Thus, if the JF-17 PFX falters, the PAF could aim for 120-150 J-10CEs.


The FC-31/J-31 prototypes have probably been flying regularly. That isn't the issue. Rather, the real question is when we can expect a LRIP model. However, it seems that much of SAC's work at the moment is going towards the J-35. @Deino

I agree on historic part. I understand that ideally PAF always wanted to fill atleast 4-5 squadrons for each aircraft type. As you include more, the overall cost per aircraft reduces. Its not just the aircrafts but trainings and logistics as well. But there is a certain threshold to which you can take that.

However, still I think this would change in future. The cost of modern aircrafts has shoot up and the state of Pakistan's economy has gone down. Secondly, previously PAF only relied majorly on manned aircrafts. However, now PAF is also investing quite a lot on all sorts of drones and surface to air missiles. In addition, PAF never had any force multipliers prior to 2010. From 2010 onwards, PAF has to spent subtantial amount on force multipliers AEW&Cs, aerial fuel tankers, their maintenance, logistics, crew trainings, etc. So a lot has changed from the past. Modern warfare requires a more balanced force and we now no longer has liberty to induct 100+ manned aircrafts of every type. We got quite significant expenditures in SAMs, Cyberspace, UCAVs, every sort of munitions, force multipliers and more.

I believe its just not Pakistan but other countries will also reduce their manned aircrafts to some extent. The acquisition cost and flying hourly cost of these modern 4.5 gen / 5 gen aircrafts is way too high. Plus lot of new critical areas have emerged that needs investments. These are all the reasons on which I believe that golden 90 figure won't be true for next platforms. Some believed that initial order of J-10Cs was 60, while many believed it is 36. I never understood where those numbers came, perhaps people assumed that atleast 2 squadrons as initial order. However it found out only 20 aircrafts were the initial order. That number certainly will increase but perhaps not the way most are expecting. This will be even more applicable to J-31s.
 
I agree on historic part. I understand that ideally PAF always wanted to fill atleast 4-5 squadrons for each aircraft type. As you include more, the overall cost per aircraft reduces. Its not just the aircrafts but trainings and logistics as well. But there is a certain threshold to which you can take that.

However, still I think this would change in future. The cost of modern aircrafts has shoot up and the state of Pakistan's economy has gone down. Secondly, previously PAF only relied majorly on manned aircrafts. However, now PAF is also investing quite a lot on all sorts of drones and surface to air missiles. In addition, PAF never had any force multipliers prior to 2010. From 2010 onwards, PAF has to spent subtantial amount on force multipliers AEW&Cs, aerial fuel tankers, their maintenance, logistics, crew trainings, etc. So a lot has changed from the past. Modern warfare requires a more balanced force and we now no longer has liberty to induct 100+ manned aircrafts of every type. We got quite significant expenditures in SAMs, Cyberspace, UCAVs, every sort of munitions, force multipliers and more.

I believe its just not Pakistan but other countries will also reduce their manned aircrafts to some extent. The acquisition cost and flying hourly cost of these modern 4.5 gen / 5 gen aircrafts is way too high. Plus lot of new critical areas have emerged that needs investments. These are all the reasons on which I believe that golden 90 figure won't be true for next platforms. Some believed that initial order of J-10Cs was 60, while many believed it is 36. I never understood where those numbers came, perhaps people assumed that atleast 2 squadrons as initial order. However it found out only 20 aircrafts were the initial order. That number certainly will increase but perhaps not the way most are expecting. This will be even more applicable to J-31s.
Yes, I also think the overall size of the PAF crewed fleet will shrink, but within that framework, it will still aim for an 80~90+ unit force for each aircraft type. It's just that the number of primary fighter types will drop to 2 or 3 types at most.

When we look at the PAF options that exist and are assured, we only see the J-10CE and J-31. Yes, the JF-17 currently exists, but with the PAF reaching its 150+ requirement and AVIC having no need to market this fighter (as it has the J-10CE and L-15B), the writing is on the wall for the Thunder, IMO.

The JF-17 was sought at a time when the PAF didn't have options, and now it does, both for 4.5+ gen (J-10CE) and NGFA (J-31). PFX will likely fall flat like AZM.

Thus, I think the PAF will continue buying J-10CEs in incremental batches and, by the 2030s, have a fairly sizable fleet of at least 90 units, if not 120~150 aircraft. From there, the PAF would acquire J-31s to form up its offensive wings. By the time the J-31 program is complete, the JF-17s, F-16s, Mirages, etc., will have aged out, leaving the PAF with around 200~240 crewed jets.
 
The FC-31/J-31 prototypes have probably been flying regularly. That isn't the issue. Rather, the real question is when we can expect a LRIP model. However, it seems that much of SAC's work at the moment is going towards the J-35. @Deino

I've seen the two designations used interchangeably. I'm not sure which jet is what or if they are the same.
 
Yes, I also think the overall size of the PAF crewed fleet will shrink, but within that framework, it will still aim for an 80~90+ unit force for each aircraft type. It's just that the number of primary fighter types will drop to 2 or 3 types at most.

When we look at the PAF options that exist and are assured, we only see the J-10CE and J-31. Yes, the JF-17 currently exists, but with the PAF reaching its 150+ requirement and AVIC having no need to market this fighter (as it has the J-10CE and L-15B), the writing is on the wall for the Thunder, IMO.

The JF-17 was sought at a time when the PAF didn't have options, and now it does, both for 4.5+ gen (J-10CE) and NGFA (J-31). PFX will likely fall flat like AZM.

Thus, I think the PAF will continue buying J-10CEs in incremental batches and, by the 2030s, have a fairly sizable fleet of at least 90 units, if not 120~150 aircraft. From there, the PAF would acquire J-31s to form up its offensive wings. By the time the J-31 program is complete, the JF-17s, F-16s, Mirages, etc., will have aged out, leaving the PAF with around 200~240 crewed jets.

Makes sense. In addition within next 2 decades we may see autonomous, highly agile & maneuverable UCAVs carrying air - air missiles. Such future systems or breakthrough technologies may further tilt the numbers.
 
I've seen the two designations used interchangeably. I'm not sure which jet is what or if they are the same.
'J-31' was first used for the 2012 technology demonstrator. Sometime later, AVIC started using "FC-31" (especially after the second demonstrator in 2016) when promoting it to foreign buyers or investors. Recently, AVIC has reverted to using 'J-31' for the same program.

I think AVIC had used the "FC" designation for export purposes, but in recent years, it decided to use "J" but with an "E" suffix. For example, AVIC used to market the J-10A as the FC-20, but since the J-10C, it switched to J-10CE.

Makes sense. In addition within next 2 decades we may see autonomous, highly agile & maneuverable UCAVs carrying air - air missiles. Such future systems or breakthrough technologies may further tilt the numbers.
Yep, and I also think the PAF will invest in UCAVs for strike purposes.
 
Yes, I also think the overall size of the PAF crewed fleet will shrink, but within that framework, it will still aim for an 80~90+ unit force for each aircraft type. It's just that the number of primary fighter types will drop to 2 or 3 types at most.

When we look at the PAF options that exist and are assured, we only see the J-10CE and J-31. Yes, the JF-17 currently exists, but with the PAF reaching its 150+ requirement and AVIC having no need to market this fighter (as it has the J-10CE and L-15B), the writing is on the wall for the Thunder, IMO.

The JF-17 was sought at a time when the PAF didn't have options, and now it does, both for 4.5+ gen (J-10CE) and NGFA (J-31). PFX will likely fall flat like AZM.

Thus, I think the PAF will continue buying J-10CEs in incremental batches and, by the 2030s, have a fairly sizable fleet of at least 90 units, if not 120~150 aircraft. From there, the PAF would acquire J-31s to form up its offensive wings. By the time the J-31 program is complete, the JF-17s, F-16s, Mirages, etc., will have aged out, leaving the PAF with around 200~240 crewed jets.

300 fighter jets is a good number, backed by 200 unmanned AI plane like Anka, Kilzimia. By 2035 we will witness a revolutionary upgraded Kilzimia or Anka.
 
2019 proved to be a game changer moment for us. Although gap between forces was being decreased since 2008 but 2019 proved to be Eureka moment for us. Army leadership realized how much they can achieve through Air Force. Since then, it's decided that from now on not that we won't wait for India to buy something than we would rush to match it but now we would make India run and get things to restore balance of power.
Wrong. Pakistan doesn't have the economy to beat India in an arms race. India can go on shopping sprees of overpriced imported French and Russian equipment. Pakistan cannot do the same with F-16s and F-35s.
 
From Deino's Facebook accountView attachment 29502

However this image is actually so blurry that IMO they look even more like two F-22s than a J-35 or J-35 & FC-31 (J-31). But don't tell this too loud, otherwise some Pakistani fan-boys immediately claim these two are for the PAF. :ROFLMAO:

Here's the original one (via @Captain小潇)

1711612403200.png
 
The J-31 fighter jet is not a national project of China; it is a self-funded research and development effort by the Chinese aviation industry. Therefore, it is not mature yet and still requires a considerable amount of time.
 
The J-31 fighter jet is not a national project of China; it is a self-funded research and development effort by the Chinese aviation industry. Therefore, it is not mature yet and still requires a considerable amount of time.
Leads one to wonder why ACM announced it now...
 
我的英语不是很好,所以我只能粗略地翻译给你看。

让人不禁要问,为什么ACM现在宣布了它......

2012年10月31日,歼-31战机首飞成功,引起广泛关注。沈阳飞机公司(SAC)终于在世界眼中抛弃了"依靠模仿俄罗斯苏霍伊战机求生存"的标签。随着歼-15舰载战斗机在“辽宁”号航母上的成功起降,人们再次对SAC赞不绝口。许多人可能希望歼-31战斗机能够早日服役,但令人失望的是,歼-31可能永远不会出现在中国军方的装备库存中。这是因为歼-31战斗机不是由国家正式委托的。也就是说,这是SAC和中国航空工业集团公司的企业项目,类似于FC-1“小龙”出口战斗机。没有国家委托或投资,就没有必要采购,所有市场风险将由SAC和中国航空工业集团公司自行承担。

 
Where the pic was taken that is actual question. If it is in Pakistan then obviously these are J 31 pair. In same way when 3 Z10 were given for evaluation purpose to Pakistan.
 
Where the pic was taken that is actual question. If it is in Pakistan then obviously these are J 31 pair. In same way when 3 Z10 were given for evaluation purpose to Pakistan.
This pic is not from Pakistan.
 

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