Rafale M Deal: India and France to Fast-Track Negotiations After Elections

[DDG-80]

Sorry my over-enthusiastic friend, but the key-word is this part!

"is expected to increase because" ... and then followed by long plans, huge aims and ambitious ideas but it still is a plan and not a fact!

So the question was NOT if there are ideas to rectify it, but plain and simple a description of the current situation.

Everything else is useless blahblahblah. In fact NOTHING HAS BEEN done yet to immediately improve the serviceability.

View attachment 44231

Improving defense capabilities isn't akin to making instant noodles. It requires meticulous planning, strategic investments, and time. Rest assured, India is steadfast in its efforts to bolster its military strength.

 

[That_Guy]

The J-31 has not been inducted by anyone

Thats because it's still in active development.

 

[Harbyharb]

The cost of buying 26 Rafale for Navy is 6 billion dollars
I think the Navy and ministry of defense will have checked and established that these hyper expensive jets can operate off Vikrant carrier
Ps they are being brought for Vikrant Indian Built carrier..

I find it hilarious that pdf posters think that India would spend six billion with out having a plan and test that rafale was best options
Remember super hornets were the other options
I don't think India is naive enough to blow waste money like you Suggest

No nation, no person, no entity would spend 6 billion dollars without a plan. It's just that it may not be a plan that prioritizes on developing military capability. People always assume governments/militaries as a singular logical entity, instead, they are but a loose consortium of bickering tribes, stick some brown envelope into the right hands and you will see stuff like INSAS and Arjun repeat themselves.

If there's any consolation, all of these would only happen if India decides on actually signing the contract and placing the order with the franchise, which is a fat "if".

You can "find it hilarious" all you want, the elevator on Vikrant/Vikramaditya won't magically become larger because of it. Perhaps they are buying the Rafale-M exclusively for the Vishal, and actually, that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, both french aerospace and Indian shipbuilding are well-known for their, uh, efficiency.

As for your j31 induction let's see what happens Chinese generosity will go only so far you need a serious financial improvement to buy and operate fifth generation fighter..

Will see how much china gives you and what you have to do for this favour ie lease territory access to strategic areas later to be called Chinese land ..
Nothing is free

For your record, I'm not Pakistani, I'm not even ethnically South Asian. I'm a WASP who just happened to care a lot about the geopolitical dynamics around the Indian Ocean.

And yes, I do agree that all the fanfare about how the J-31 will be inducted "soon", as in within 5 years, is just as ludicrous as the Indians claiming some new random indigenous MII gear is coming "soon".

However, the military equipment transfer from China to Pakistan carries more complexities than pure commercial transactions, and it actually involves the Gulf countries and their geopolitical needs as well since Pakistan has troops stationed in Saudi Arabia as "peacekeepers", and is generally considered as a balancing party to offset Indian influence so that the channel of trade between the largest seller and the largest buyer of crude oil remains open. But going into details there would be off-topic.

 

[Deino]

Improving defense capabilities isn't akin to making instant noodles. It requires meticulous planning, strategic investments, and time. Rest assured, India is steadfast in its efforts to bolster its military strength.

Then do not claim the issue is solved since there are plans ...

 

[harpy1]

No nation, no person, no entity would spend 6 billion dollars without a plan. It's just that it may not be a plan that prioritizes on developing military capability. People always assume governments/militaries as a singular logical entity, instead, they are but a loose consortium of bickering tribes, stick some brown envelope into the right hands and you will see stuff like INSAS and Arjun repeat themselves.

If there's any consolation, all of these would only happen if India decides on actually signing the contract and placing the order with the franchise, which is a fat "if".

You can "find it hilarious" all you want, the elevator on Vikrant/Vikramaditya won't magically become larger because of it. Perhaps they are buying the Rafale-M exclusively for the Vishal, and actually, that makes a lot of sense now that I think about it, both french aerospace and Indian shipbuilding are well-known for their, uh, efficiency.

For your record, I'm not Pakistani, I'm not even ethnically South Asian. I'm a WASP who just happened to care a lot about the geopolitical dynamics around the Indian Ocean.

And yes, I do agree that all the fanfare about how the J-31 will be inducted "soon", as in within 5 years, is just as ludicrous as the Indians claiming some new random indigenous MII gear is coming "soon".

However, the military equipment transfer from China to Pakistan carries more complexities than pure commercial transactions, and it actually involves the Gulf countries and their geopolitical needs as well since Pakistan has troops stationed in Saudi Arabia as "peacekeepers", and is generally considered as a balancing party to offset Indian influence so that the channel of trade between the largest seller and the largest buyer of crude oil remains open. But going into details there would be off-topic.

India Clears The Way For Naval Rafale Fighter Purchase

The French carrier-based Rafale fighter appears to have emerged victorious in India, being selected ahead of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

www.twz.com

Few corrections for you
Firstly rafale M is for Vikrant carrier only
Second the rafale having wing span of 35feet versus elevator on carrier of just 32 foot won over the super hornets which with folding wings was 30 feet only

That tells me everything firstly rafale is superior jet
Second the elevator issue is not big concern for operational effectiveness of Vikrant
Elevator are only needed for housing partial aircraft on the Carrier not the entire fleet
Vikrant will be carrying mh60 anti submarine helicopter those could be housed underneath via elevator

Like I said it's minimal issue
It could be the elevator issue is resolved thru modification by the time rafale s arrived

Vishal is coming in 2035 guaranteed my understanding India will order additionally 57 rafales for these in 2030 onwards

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Nobody , including the people within MOD believe that India will buy 114 MRFA let alone 114 Rafales

Though we do expect a follow on order for 36-54 Rafale F5 after Navy's 26 Rafale M deal

When the IAF was planning to buy 126 Rafales, the Tejas MK1A was not yet in mass production, and the Tejas MK2 was not under development. Today, with 180 Tejas MK1A units on order and the Tejas MK2 set to enter mass production by 2028, the need for 126 Rafales may no longer exist. However, if the Tejas MK2 gets delayed, we might see an additional 36 Rafales being ordered.

 

[harpy1]

The Indians love rafale and the f5 will be ordered as stop gap to tackle fifth gen Chinese fighters until Amca comes in 2035/2040 period

India will.not buy USA russian or European fifth generation fighters

We will have our own at half the cost and equal performance

 

[Lionheart]

Are they making a dedicated folding-wing variant of the Rafale-M for India? Or are they planning to just, well, wing it and service it exclusively above deck?

Last I checked it doesn’t fit on the elevator of either Vikrant or Vikramaditya

When did you get the chance to check the elevator of Vikrant or Vikramaditya?

 

[harpy1]

When did you get the chance to check the elevator of Vikrant or Vikramaditya?

What had elevator got to to do with 22 deck based fighters

Mountain out of a small mole

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

The J-31 will evolve/improve through experience in the field. (Electronics, comms, coatings, maintenance, tactics, etc.)the PAF will squeeze every amount of utility from the aircraft and the eco-system build around it. It’s a great program for Pakistan and China to collaborate on, at the current global standard of air power.

Improvements to the engines will be the real factor to watch for. In the mean time, Pakistan needs to make sure the air frame is capable, from the start, to be able to sustainably pull extreme maneuvers (like the airframe of the F-22, while also preserving its energy (energy management) for more maneuvers after earlier maneuvers), when those engines become available and can be retrofitted. High TWR won’t be a desire, it will be a NEED to make this jet competitive.

Imparting additional energy to missiles while flying at its service ceiling, even when super-cruising the jet could have first sight, first shot, first kill capabilities over 4th gen adversaries. TVC would help the jet maintain an advantage in ACM, should it come to a dogfight. A set of powerful engines would also allow this plane to potentially carry the powerful jamming pods from the J-16D.

We have to remember the synergy of this program and the PLAN’s J-35 program. Considering China will try to make the J-35 at least on par with the F-35 and F/A-18E/F, the J-31 will have an easier chance of being even more capable in a dogfight. Lighter landing gear, no tail hook assembly, no folding wings; lots of weight savings.

Pakistan should make sure its engineers working on the KAAN, give an input on the air frame of the J-31. Make sure it’s all it can be, and if there are any places it can be improved, those improvements should be implemented so they don’t have to be retrofitted later on.

The PAF should also be looking at the upgrades being planned for the F-22, and see how many can be implemented on the J-31.

P.S. I hope the PAF J-31 come with a gun. It may seem trivial until you need it. At the very least, if the enemy knows you have a gun they will avoid getting in close unless they are willing to dogfight; deterrence in an area PAF pilots are well trained in excelling. Hopefully also the software is down the way the Swedes do it, separate the flight critical software from the operational software, so upgrades can be implemented ASAP, such as daily on the Gripen.

I have to admit the PAF has surpassed the Bharati aviation in planning and execution by a large margin. One is imagining to get ready for the 6th gen air warfare, and the other is dreaming of fighting back both China and Pakistan with the Rafales....

Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

 

[vikNerv]

I have to admit the PAF has surpassed the Bharati aviation in planning and execution by a large margin. One is imagining to get ready for the 6th gen air warfare, and the other is dreaming of fighting back both China and Pakistan with the Rafales....

Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

They give out titles just about to anyone here it seems. You keep making generic statements over and over without adding anything of value whatsoever. What part of PAF "aviation planning" surpassed Bharati aviation by a "large margin"?

 

[FuturePAF]

I have to admit the PAF has surpassed the Bharati aviation in planning and execution by a large margin. One is imagining to get ready for the 6th gen air warfare, and the other is dreaming of fighting back both China and Pakistan with the Rafales....

Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

The PAF are a professional force that knows they are the perpetual underdogs. Imagination and extracting the most out of their resources have always been their calling cards. There is also the benefit great partners. Initially as a western allied nation, the support from the US during the Cold War, but also France and Italy have really helped the PAF keep pace in modern tech.

China for almost the entire history of the PAF and in recent decades Turkey have been instrumental in the PAF maintaining that pace without the politics forcing a compromise.

Great partners and imagination can only go so far though. The PAF needs a strong economy backing it up. So it is all the more remarkable that the PAF finds a way to keep pace in such a volatile region.

Now the Rafale is a formidable opponent, no doubt, so the PAF will not be able to rest on its laurels, such as its performance with swift retort. Going for the J-31 will allow the PAF to absorb as much tech within its means, and try to shape the battlefield to come out on top, and support the government in achieving a political victory. Hopefully those means improve soon, and the PAF and associated engineers can do more.

 

[Archie]

When the IAF was planning to buy 126 Rafales, the Tejas MK1A was not yet in mass production, and the Tejas MK2 was not under development. Today, with 180 Tejas MK1A units on order and the Tejas MK2 set to enter mass production by 2028, the need for 126 Rafales may no longer exist. However, if the Tejas MK2 gets delayed, we might see an additional 36 Rafales being ordered.

You are correct

Babu's within MOD are saying that we can buy 300 Tejas Mk1a/Mk2 for the price of 114 MRFA

India does need Rafales as the tip of the spear to face off against chinese J20 , but 36 are not enough
IAF had suggested that they need a minimum of 80 Rafales type jets for fulfilling all its obligations
By the time Tejas Mk2 enters service, Mirage 2000 and Mig29 would be on their way out
Hence I expect around 3 sqds of Rafale F5 to be ordered sometime in 2026-27 with these aircrafts directly Replacing 1 squadron each Of Mig29 and Mirage2000

 

[harpy1]

Guaranteed
More Rafales will arrive outside of the 26 order for navy
Air force want these as stop gap until Amca arrives in post 2035/2040
I suspect F5 version with wingman drones in 2030

 

[MirageBlue]

Dassault will only increase its output after a contrast is signed and a good amount of payment is done! And then India has to wait ... in case if Saudi Arbaia or other countries are even faster in signing a contract, India has to wait almost a decade before it ever can think to get a new Rafale and Dassault knows it they are the only player in town.

That will be known before any contract signature with Dassault. Those are kinds of things that will have to thrashed out BEFORE any contract will be agreed upon by the Indian Navy and MoD. If Dassault can't deliver within a sensible time frame, I doubt there will be any deal.