Rafale M Deal: India and France to Fast-Track Negotiations After Elections

[FuturePAF]

Are they making a dedicated folding-wing variant of the Rafale-M for India? Or are they planning to just, well, wing it and service it exclusively above deck?

Last I checked it doesn’t fit on the elevator of either Vikrant or Vikramaditya

Wasn’t one of the points of the Rafale being selected that it didn’t need folding wings?

 

[vkdindian]

There are two issues at hand being discussed here. One is decision to buy Rafale and the associated timelines and the other seems to be Rafale’s capability as a platform.

Timelines is definitely an issue when it comes to procurement in India.

But there is not a single doubt about its capabilities. Some people are casting doubts, if it would fit on Indian aircraft carrier etc etc. Come on, don’t be so naive to assume that IN would make a decision without considering all these aspects.

Rafale is an amazing platform and would remain one even if it comes a little few years late to IN.

 

[Harbyharb]

Wasn’t one of the points of the Rafale being selected that it didn’t need folding wings?

Not having folding wings makes maintenance easier as it lessens mechanical complexity and stress concentrations, but it doesn't mean the Rafale have narrower profiles than Izdeliye 9.41 (7.8m folded) and Super Hornet (9.32m folded) when it has a wingspan of 10.9 meters.

This is especially the case for Vikramaditya which has an inboard elevator that's a snug fit even for 9.41(It's originally a Kiev designed only to carry Yak-38 after all).

 

[FuturePAF]

Not having folding wings makes maintenance easier as it lessens mechanical complexity and stress concentrations, but it doesn't mean the Rafale have narrower profiles than Izdeliye 9.41 (7.8m folded) and Super Hornet (9.32m folded) when it has a wingspan of 10.9 meters.

This is especially the case for Vikramaditya which has an inboard elevator that's a snug fit even for 9.41(It's originally a Kiev designed only to carry Yak-38 after all).

So how wide is the Rafale?

 

[Archie]

Similar to old project when you're intended to buy 126 Rafale but ended in only 36 Rafale, I think same thing will happen again

Nobody , including the people within MOD believe that India will buy 114 MRFA let alone 114 Rafales

Though we do expect a follow on order for 36-54 Rafale F5 after Navy's 26 Rafale M deal

 

[Yasser76]

If it is a folding wing variant this will delay delivery even more I think. It will need to be certified again

 

[Harbyharb]

So how wide is the Rafale?

Go read the original post again, I'll pretend that you didn't ask. Reading is hard I get it.

But there is not a single doubt about its capabilities.

533mm diameter radome, ~760 T/R GaAS element, M88 turbofan.

There aren't many countries that could build carrier jets so options ain't plenty I get it. 9.41 is fundamentally a defective product (only dozens of land test flights before the Vikramaditya deal compared to Su-27K that at least had a few thousand naval flight trials), and Super-Hornet is fundamentally an obese F-5, the structural layout of which does not cope well with increased scale and weight (bad at all air combat manoeuvres except low-speed high AoA, including but not limited to one of the worst roll rates of all fourth-gen fighters, poor energy retention in sustained turn, poor transonic and supersonic performance, etc. And it's American so there must be a billion strings attached.

 

[MirageBlue]

Are they making a dedicated folding-wing variant of the Rafale-M for India? Or are they planning to just, well, wing it and service it exclusively above deck?

Last I checked it doesn’t fit on the elevator of either Vikrant or Vikramaditya

Nope. Because it doesn't need that. As much as some people claim that "sources" tell them that Rafales won't fit on the INS Vikrant's lifts. The IN folks that were part of this evaluation and selection of the Rafale aren't fools.

Nuke capable Rafale-M tested for INS Vikrant in Goa

The marine version of the Rafale jet has a reinforced undercarriage and nose wheel, a bigger arrester hook, an integrated ladder, and other minor differences from the Rafale currently in use in the Indian Air Force.

www.hindustantimes.com

According to people familiar with the matter, the Rafale-M is better suited for use on the aircraft carriers than the F18 Hornet fighter from the US for several reasons. They pointed out that it can fit into the lift bay of the Vikramaditya, unlike the F18 which cannot fit the lift of the Vikramaditya even with folded wings.

 

[Deino]

Are they making a dedicated folding-wing variant of the Rafale-M for India? Or are they planning to just, well, wing it and service it exclusively above deck?

Last I checked it doesn’t fit on the elevator of either Vikrant or Vikramaditya

There won't be a dedicated version with folding wings unless India pays for its development and and indeed, they have no solution for this problem.

Two months ago I had a most interesting interview with an Indian analyst and at first i wanted to apologise in advance since I'm often quite rude and arrogant against certain Indian claims and he noted, that there is no need to apologise, in fact I'm not only correct with all my accusations and concerns, they are in fact even worse.
Neither the INS Vikramaditya nor the Vikrant could ever handle the Rafales under deck since they indeed do not fit not only the elevators but even worse, the structural main issue is the door/opening in the hull which is simply too small. So either thy cut the whole deck and enlarge thsi - which was never done before on any carrier - or they have to leave them on deck!

And since this is so much embarrassing, no-one in India within the military and especially the Navy wants to speak about it.

In the following two hours we were discussing, he told me even more funny stories ... but that would be off-topic!

...
But there is not a single doubt about its capabilities. Some people are casting doubts, if it would fit on Indian aircraft carrier etc etc. Come on, don’t be so naive to assume that IN would make a decision without considering all these aspects.
...

In fact it is beyond any question, they simply omitted this! So YES, they are that NAIVE!

 

[Cryptonian]

If contract signed in say 2026 (very possible considering how India drags these things on), first Rafale M will not hit an Indian carrier deck till around 2032 right? That is 8 years from now.

You need to figure out what IN does in the meantime.

Best bet would factor in leasing 6-8 Ms from the French Navy.

The Marine have 3 sqds of 15 aircraft each, asking for a 6 year lease on half an Sqd may be feasible. This way India gets carrier ops and work up time out the way before it's own aircraft arrive and builds up a pool of pilots and develops tactics.

Alternative to this is having two carrier with aging MIG-29s and low servicibility for 8 years. Massive waste of manpower and money

Within 6 months of ordering 3 ex-french Navy Rafale-m will arrive for training. And Dassault also has plan for increasing prod capacity from 24, to 36 by 2024 end, so Indian will get slot in that new production line.

Dassault to Ramp Up Rafale Production to Meet Rising Demand: CEO

Dassault Aviation will increase Rafale fighter jet’s monthly production from two to three by the end of 2024, CEO Eric Trapiier said.

www.thedefensepost.com

 

[Yasser76]

Within 6 months of ordering 3 ex-french Navy Rafale-m will arrive for training. And Dassault also has plan for increasing prod capacity from 24, to 36 by 2024 end, so Indian will get slot in that new production line.

Dassault to Ramp Up Rafale Production to Meet Rising Demand: CEO

Dassault Aviation will increase Rafale fighter jet’s monthly production from two to three by the end of 2024, CEO Eric Trapiier said.

www.thedefensepost.com

No, India will get a slot once it orders, then it will wait in line after other customers. 2 ex French Navy planes is a good move though.

 

[Deino]

Within 6 months of ordering 3 ex-french Navy Rafale-m will arrive for training. And Dassault also has plan for increasing prod capacity from 24, to 36 by 2024 end, so Indian will get slot in that new production line.

Dassault to Ramp Up Rafale Production to Meet Rising Demand: CEO

Dassault Aviation will increase Rafale fighter jet’s monthly production from two to three by the end of 2024, CEO Eric Trapiier said.

www.thedefensepost.com

Dassault will only increase its output after a contrast is signed and a good amount of payment is done! And then India has to wait ... in case if Saudi Arbaia or other countries are even faster in signing a contract, India has to wait almost a decade before it ever can think to get a new Rafale and Dassault knows it they are the only player in town.

 

[Harbyharb]

Two months ago I had a most interesting interview with an Indian analyst and at first i wanted to apologise in advance since I'm often quite rude and arrogant against certain Indian claims and he noted, that there is no need to apologise, in fact I'm not only correct with all my accusations and concerns, they are in fact even worse.
Neither the INS Vikramaditya nor the Vikrant could ever handle the Rafales under deck since they indeed do not fit not only the elevators but even worse, the structural main issue is the door/opening in the hull which is simply too small. So either thy cut the whole deck and enlarge thsi - which was never done before on any carrier - or they have to leave them on deck!

Nonono, India never does anything wrong, you are just ignorant. They are just practising the original WW2 armoured carrier tactics, where the armoured carrier only acts as a manoeuvrable terminal transit platform, ensuring survivability by having minimal fuel munition and spare aircraft in the hanger!

Invincible Rafale + Invulnerable carrier, strong Bharat Navy

 

[Cryptonian]

No, India will get a slot once it orders, then it will wait in line after other customers. 2 ex French Navy planes is a good move though.

Yeah Dassault CEO told you that ?
It's 3 not 2. Insecurity is making you lose concentration.

Dassault will only increase its output after a contrast is signed and a good amount of payment is done! And then India has to wait ... in case if Saudi Arbaia or other countries are even faster in signing a contract, India has to wait almost a decade before it ever can think to get a new Rafale and Dassault knows it they are the only player in town.

Use your brain, that's not how corporate works. Those countries with existing order didn't order with any clause saying that Dassault has to increase the prod rate. So why would Dassault allocate all new prod line slots to the previous orders.

 

[panzerfaust 3]

Similar to old project when you're intended to buy 126 Rafale but ended in only 36 Rafale, I think same thing will happen again

You think or you just plain wish?

I think 36 for the airforce and 26 for the navy are coming , that makes a good number