Rafale M Deal: India and France to Fast-Track Negotiations After Elections

[nahtanbob]

Again … that all may be true depending the political standpoint, but my only point is: This initial claim „This is gonna be a total game-changer! Imagine the Mig-29K teaming up with the Rafale Marine – pure destruction on the high seas!“ is wrong and totally exaggerated - like so many Indian phantasy-fan-boy-claims posted all day long, when then as a reply you argue with „in cooperation with others“, „in the far future“ and so on!

So why making bombastic claims then? Only to feel good?

Seriously all you need to establish dominance in the Indian Ocean against the PLAN is probably a squadron of Rafales. Until China steps up its game in terms of allies there is no real threat in the short to intermediate term. The Quad is pretty much a deterrent against China except for maybe Taiwan

 

[dbc]

You just made up your own facts about 10 Rafales not available for deployment

France claims 90% availability rate for combat for Rafale Ms
I just went by 85% which is what IAF is getting on a regular basis

You said 4 single seat aircrafts are required for training,
2 are off for heavy maintenance
Another 2 could be not available for any reason.

I just said that same maths should apply to J10CE which has lower availability rates as compared to Western aircrafts thanks to reliability issues of its engine.

You can't digest that by your logic PAF will struggle to field 10 J10CE in combat

Becoz the maths you keep on applying to India will also Apply to Pakistan

You can Google Jf17 availability rates to get an idea of what maintenance requirements you will face with J10CE

Do you realize you are comparing availability rates between a shipborne aircraft and a land based aircraft? Apples and oranges Mr Justin. For one thing, you have plenty of available space on land to accommodate adequate spares and house service personnel. On a ship you are heavily constrained. Another fact that you have completely ignored is shipborne aircraft experience higher wear and tear v land-based aircraft each landing is a controlled crash into the deck and then there is the corrosive conditions at sea.

Then finally you assume you can maintain the same sortie and availability rates of the OEM ( on a smaller carrier)- laughable.

Oh yeah and you have to move the aircraft below deck to rearm, service and refuel. You don't do that on deck because 1. There isn't much room 2. Its dangerous since ordnance and fuel will ignite if these operations are performed on deck while the vessel is under attack. 3. Specialized tooling to efficiently perform these operations are only available below deck. 4. Imagine the maintainence crew running around on deck when the aircrafts are landing or taking off.


How do you account for these factors in your 85% availability rate estimate and the impact to air ops tempo when the wingtip pylons have to be detached and reattached everytime you move the aircraft below deck.

 

[harpy1]

No, that is literally not how it works. Also take into account attrition, even a surge in wartime will never mean you will have all 26 ready (4 cannot even fly off the carrier!!!!).

Even 16 (at a push!) means you will still need to commit at least 6-8 to maintain a continous 24/7 CAP of two planes over the carrier during war. That will give you around 10 left, assuming some of these will need repairs on the carrier, at a push you will have 8 fighters available for offensive ops.

Who told you you need 24 hour cap of two fighters at all times
That is the most ridiculous comment ever
You joker

Any aircraft carrier has radars scanning upto 500km radius

Sometimes they are flanked by guided missile frigates with 50 plus medium range sams avd their own tracking radars

24 hour cap over the high seas to do what exactly

 

[harpy1]

I swear Yasser your hilarious man

Vikrant carrier with just 20 Rafales
With battle group consisting of two kolkatta class destroyers and two scorpene subs
Further two Shivak class frigates would wreck havoc on your coastlines avd sea lines

 

[MirageBlue]

From where did you get this 60% rate in PLAAF service?

Ok the question turns to you. What is the known availability rate of the J-10 in PLAAF service? With your OSINT sources of course, since no real data ever gets out.

 

[Deino]

Ok the question turns to you. What is the known availability rate of the J-10 in PLAAF service? With your OSINT sources of course, since no real data ever gets out.

In fact there is no data available, but to make a claim out of imagination only to prove a claim and calculate some stuff is stupid

 

[MirageBlue]

In fact there is no data available, but to make a claim out of imagination only to prove a claim and calculate some stuff is stupid

It's not stupid, it's guess work. Your belief that it's better than 65% is also just that! Guess work!

Are you aware of any PBL signed by Chengdu Aircraft Corp with the PLAAF to ensure that 80% availability is maintained?

If not, then 65% is pretty standard for most fighters around the world and nothing to get so riled up as to call others stupid.

It seems you have no data to disprove him, but you are willing to call him stupid since his claim doesn't suit you. In reality, it could be even lower and you wouldn't know any better!

 

[Yasser76]

I swear Yasser your hilarious man

Vikrant carrier with just 20 Rafales
With battle group consisting of two kolkatta class destroyers and two scorpene subs
Further two Shivak class frigates would wreck havoc on your coastlines avd sea lines

As many have pointed out, you will have nowhere near 20 on deck, inability to look facts in the face seems to be a character trait of some Indian posters on here.

Good luck approaching Pak shores with fighter jets, anti-carrier ballistic missiles and pn subs a roaming around.....

 

[Yasser76]

Who told you you need 24 hour cap of two fighters at all times
That is the most ridiculous comment ever
You joker

Any aircraft carrier has radars scanning upto 500km radius

Sometimes they are flanked by guided missile frigates with 50 plus medium range sams avd their own tracking radars

24 hour cap over the high seas to do what exactly

Again, this shows incredible ignorance. With no 24 hour CAP an IN carrier will be vulnerable to PAF and PLAAF jets that can fire anti-ship missiles out of the reach of IN SAMs. Very basic stuff. You will need jets in the air to stop them. US Navy does this as an SOP in high tension times, I guess IN just had laughing emojis instead.

 

[onlinpunit]

Again, this shows incredible ignorance. With no 24 hour CAP an IN carrier will be vulnerable to PAF and PLAAF jets that can fire anti-ship missiles out of the reach of IN SAMs. Very basic stuff. You will need jets in the air to stop them. US Navy does this as an SOP in high tension times, I guess IN just had laughing emojis instead.

You mean to say CAP will stop incoming missiles ?

 

[harpy1]

You mean to say CAP will stop incoming missiles ?

I told you his hillarious

The guy just makes massive assumptions

At no point will India have 20 Rafales ready ...made up...in war time they will have 26 ready full stop ..

Then they will 30 plus mig29k ready

P8,Poseidon ready

As for paf flying attack the Indian carrier group

Is this after they take out the entire Indian air force or before

The last time I checked your outgunned in the air

So can you spare 24 hours A day threat to a Indian carrier five hundred miles out at sea

Rafale has combat radius of 1000 miles

So where your getting your 24 hour threat from.buddy

 

[Yasser76]

You mean to say CAP will stop incoming missiles ?

Enemy fighters will need to be intercepted before they have a chance to fire of Anti-ship missiles. CM-400 has a 300km-400km operational range. YJ-21 has a 1,500km operational range.

 

[Yasser76]

I told you his hillarious

The guy just makes massive assumptions

At no point will India have 20 Rafales ready ...made up...in war time they will have 26 ready full stop ..

Then they will 30 plus mig29k ready

P8,Poseidon ready

As for paf flying attack the Indian carrier group

Is this after they take out the entire Indian air force or before

The last time I checked your outgunned in the air

So can you spare 24 hours A day threat to a Indian carrier five hundred miles out at sea

Rafale has combat radius of 1000 miles

So where your getting your 24 hour threat from.buddy

More informed posters have already explained why you will not have even half that availability in jets on a carrier. I am not here to try and educate you if you literally have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Vi-va]

Who told you you need 24 hour cap of two fighters at all times
That is the most ridiculous comment ever
You joker

Any aircraft carrier has radars scanning upto 500km radius

Sometimes they are flanked by guided missile frigates with 50 plus medium range sams avd their own tracking radars

24 hour cap over the high seas to do what exactly

500km radius means the enemy aircraft's flight altitude is higher than 14.6 km. That assumption is very silly.

If the aircraft or anti ship missile has a relatively small RCS, such as less than 0.1 sq. m, 500 km detection range is very unlikely.

 

[harpy1]

More informed posters have already explained why you will not have even half that availability in jets on a carrier. I am not here to try and educate you if you literally have no idea what you are talking about.

I suggest both you and your more informed posters look at study this link



Do you have any idea

How hard it might be for a Pakistan frigate or from land based fighters to track follow avd engage a carrier battle group of this magnitude

The carrier group is 300/500km out at sea constantly moving at 30 knotts how do you intend to track chase and engage before running out of fuel

Your airforce has no twin engined fighters the Indian navy will drag you out to sea and engage your small force and destroy it

Your hoping to pick off a carrier with ten warships protecting from 250 miles away then hoping the rafales don't pick you off first

Did you see the fire power in Vikrant carrier battle group

They can do a lot of damage combined buddy